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Dan Herrmann

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Well, I just recieved our yearly query as to why we don't use flag colors to indicate hole positions.  I thought I'd copy it hear in the hope that perhaps somebody else could use it to convince people that it's not a great idea...

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Dear ****,
Thank you for your question about flag colors and/or pin sheets.

Let me start off by suggesting that one can determine the hole location on #2 from the first fairway and #9 from the first tee.  The green on #5 is so small that golfers better than I are solely concerned with their left/right direction as opposed to length.  As far as #13 goes, any shot I hit into the green is from so far away (usually a 3- or 5-wood) that I'm just trying to make it to the green, let alone be precise.

That said, Gil Hanse has designed French Creek using the minimalist approach.  Limited earth movement and respect for natural contours are a part of the minimalist movement.  Other current world-class architects in the minimalist school are Gil's former partner Tom Doak and the design team of Bill Coore & Ben Crenshaw.   Having met Gil and Bill Coore, I can tell you that they have great respect for the traditions of the game, while acknowledging the need to stay relevant in the new world of the hot golf ball and 460cc driver.

As part of that respect for tradition, they have incorporated techniques meant to make the golfer think his way around a golf course.  And a part of that thinking is a bit of deception and confusion.

Look at #17, for example.  That large bunker was designed in part to trick the golfer into thinking that the safe bailout would be to the right, where the bunker is lower.  Closer inspection shows, however, that the better "miss" is to the left.  There's a lot of room over there and you're left with an uphill chip that will usually check pretty quickly.  Need more evidence for deception?  Look at where the back tee on #17 points the golfer!

So what does this have to do with flag colors?   A lot, actually.  The minimalist school really dislikes things like flag colors.  They see it as virtual blinking signs that say, "Hit it here" like the signs you see at Citizens Bank Park.    A bit of confusion and mystery adds to the experience at a course like French Creek.

That said, I do understand your where you're coming from. 

Here's a little trick that could help you.  You'll see that the flagsticks are painted white and black.  You can actually gauge the depth of a hole fairly well if you count the number of stripes you can see on the flagstick.  Take #6 - you'll see more stripes with a front hole location than one in the back.   And, for #1 (probably the trickiest) - you can actually see the front/back depth as you drive into the club. 

OK - Pin position sheets.  These are done for tournaments, but they can actually be fairly labor intensive to produce.  Somebody needs to go out and pace off all 18 greens after new holes have been cut.  Also keep in mind that this might be nearly impossible on the weekends, when the staff is still cutting the back 9 while golfers are teeing off on #1.    In other words, you possibly wouldn't have all 18 holes cut until 8:30AM.

Lastly, there's the factor that almost no all great courses use the colored flag system.   Look at the better clubs in our area, and you'll see that very few, if any, use colored flags.  Merion (Wilson), Pine Valley (Crump), Stonewall (Doak/Hanse), Hidden Creek (Coore & Crenshaw), Gulph Mills (Ross), etc...   None use colored flags.    Nor do world class public courses like Pacific Dunes (Doak).

Of course, you could use a laser rangefinder.  These really do work.    I'm actually embarrassed to say that I use a Sky Caddy because I think it really speeds up play (even though it doesn't give yardage to the actual hole).

Hope this helps,
Dan Herrmann

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And I hope that this can help you if you ever need to address this issue at your course or club.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2008, 01:51:41 PM by Dan Herrmann »

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flag colors to indicate hole position - my letter to a member
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2008, 02:08:26 PM »
Dan, It's not my argument but expect the member to comeback with something along the lines of wondering the difference between stripes on the flagstick and colored flags. Another great reason to not use them is the hassle of needing the correct number of colored flags and the time it takes to swap them out.
I have seen instances where using the system does improve pace without removing the challenge. But that was on greens with several levels and differing orientations.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flag colors to indicate hole position - my letter to a member
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2008, 02:09:38 PM »
Adam - good point.  Thanks

Tom Dunne

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Re: Flag colors to indicate hole position - my letter to a member
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2008, 02:21:46 PM »
I think it's a good letter, with specific advice as to how this member can gain insight into his course without resorting to obvious shortcuts like colored flags. I mean, look at how many hole locations you can scope out at a place like Rustic Canyon from the entry drive alone. The idea is that a thoughtful golfer can gain an advantage from keeping his eyes open to his surroundings. That's key. Depending on the situation, that advantage might be negligible or huge. I'm sure we've all had experiences where we misplayed a hole not because of poor execution but because an hour earlier we were focused on eating a hot dog or jabbering with a crony when we needed to be paying attention. Part of the fun of the game...



Scott Stearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flag colors to indicate hole position - my letter to a member
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2008, 02:27:13 PM »
my experience with letters to members is, the longer the letter, the longer the argument.  i would have simply said that great clubs dont do it, and we dont want to spend the money (in the form of rounds crew time) on flagsticks when we can spend it on making the course better.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flag colors to indicate hole position - my letter to a member
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2008, 02:49:51 PM »
Kelly - I was being facetious :)

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flag colors to indicate hole position - my letter to a member
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2008, 03:25:14 PM »
Kelly - yep.

I was trying to convey that there are tools out there that accomplish essentially the same thing as colored flags without "ruining" it for everybody else.

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flag colors to indicate hole position - my letter to a member
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2008, 05:57:44 PM »
That's the most unusual argument I have ever heard.

It's okay to use a laser or a Skycaddy, but colored flags are anti-minimalist?

How many of those "elite" clubs you mentioned require caddies? Does your club?

I actually have gone the route of real minimalism.

My bag is down to 10 or 11 clubs, I virtually never check a yardage, not even to walk it off to a nearby sprinkler.  I admit I sometimes glance at a sprinkler as I walk by, but I have told my Skycaddy wearing friends that I don't want a yardage.

FWIW, playing out of a bag that only has two woods, one hybrid, three irons and three wedges, the yardage is really not that important.

I do, however like the colored flags my course uses because we have several Ross hilltop greens that are just hard as heck to judge without the colored flags.

K

Exactly what is the problem with some coding system? And how does something as simple as a flag "Ruin it for everybody else?"

Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flag colors to indicate hole position - my letter to a member
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2008, 06:19:13 PM »
Dan:

I just don't know...the whole "you should scope it out as you drive in argument" seems inane.  You should be paying attention to the road as you drive in!  If the greens are big (2 or more club lengths from front to back) then KNOWING the hole position will actually speed up play...what is so hard about having a schematic of the greens and placing a dot on the map to approximate the 18 hole positions (noone has to pace them off...) Just give me the general idea...

The idea that the "great clubs" don't have them seems spurious as well...don't all the clubs you refer to have caddies that know the exact hole location.  I belong to a top 100 course and we have colored flags ...it just isn't that big of a deal.

I think you are wrong and should reconsider.

Bart

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flag colors to indicate hole position - my letter to a member
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2008, 06:27:10 PM »
Good stuff Dan,  but in my opinion you left out the most important point - coloured flags look crap and lack class.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Flag colors to indicate hole position - my letter to a member
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2008, 06:28:17 PM »

That's the most unusual argument I have ever heard.

It's okay to use a laser or a Skycaddy, but colored flags are anti-minimalist?


I don't adhere to that theory.
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How many of those "elite" clubs you mentioned require caddies?
Does your club?

I actually have gone the route of real minimalism.

My bag is down to 10 or 11 clubs, I virtually never check a yardage, not even to walk it off to a nearby sprinkler. 

I haven't gone to that limit, but, I'd consider myself a traditionalist.

My use of yardage indicators, be they sprinklers, plates, posts or bushes depends upon the context of my round.  In a casual round I'll guestimate.
In a non-casual rounds I like to know the yardage and will pace from the nearest indicator.
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I admit I sometimes glance at a sprinkler as I walk by, but I have told my Skycaddy wearing friends that I don't want a yardage.


Not long ago I played with a fellow who seemed wedded to his sky caddy.
Now you have to understand that he's been a member of this club for 50 years.  At one point he was 30 yards from the green and he was looking at the yardage on his skycaddie.

More recently I played with another long time member of a club who constantly accessed his skycaddy.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  I believe that too many golfers focus on the yardage provided and ignore critical tactical signals sent by the architecture.  Fighter pilots had a term for this, it's when they became so focused on their target that they ignored other objects, like the ground or other planes.  I think some golfers zero in on the yardage to the exclusion of all other indicators.  I've really noticed this on front hole locations.  Invariably, they seem to come up short, time and time again.
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FWIW, playing out of a bag that only has two woods, one hybrid, three irons and three wedges, the yardage is really not that important.

I only carry two woods, a driver and a 3-wood, but, understanding the yardage remains critical to the type of shot I'll play.
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I do, however like the colored flags my course uses because we have several Ross hilltop greens that are just hard as heck to judge without the colored flags.

WAIT A SECOND.
In one paragraph you tell us that yardage is not that important to you due to the limited number of clubs you have, and in the next paragraph you tell us that knowing the yardage to the flag is important because the greens are on a hilltop.

You can't have it both ways.
You can't claim that you don't look at yardage indicators, that you don't care what the yardage is because of the limited number of clubs you carry and then declare that colored flags indicating the relative yardage to the hole are important because some of the greens are on hilltops.

I should have known, when you told us that you used a hybrid, that you weren't a purist.
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Exactly what is the problem with some coding system?
And how does something as simple as a flag "Ruin it for everybody else?"


If the yardage isn't that important to you, as you declared, then, what difference does it make where the flag is on the green ?

Just hit to the center of the green and you can't go wrong.

How do color coded flags ruin it ?
They erode the fabric of golf, if you're a "true golfer"
They cater to the worst elements, the whiners and golfers who want the game to be "fair"

Do you think that Donald Ross wanted you to know exactly where the holes would be cut when he sited those greens on those hilltops ?

Do you want Merion to start putting colored flags on their wickered baskets ?

You need to spend time with TEPaul down on HappyDale Farms, where there are no color coded flags, just padded rooms with bars and electrified fences.
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Brent Hutto

Re: Flag colors to indicate hole position - my letter to a member
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2008, 06:46:10 PM »
I like knowing where the hole is on the green. There is no thrill at all to silly guessing games. A truly blind or semi-blind shot where you can't see the target is great, I think we need more of them. But those shots should be able to stand on their own merits even with knowledge of the day's bloody pin position.

Any course on which the experience of playing is ruined by knowing where the hole is on the green ain't much of a course. Surely a good course by good architect should have more going for it than simply obscuring the difference between a front hole location and a back one. That's baby stuff.

And finally anyone whose experience of playing a course is ruined by seeing flags of three different colors has a sadly limited perspective on golf and on golf courses. Playing golf with someone like that must be like eating out with Frasier and Niles Crane.

Patrick Glynn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flag colors to indicate hole position - my letter to a member
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2008, 07:05:05 PM »
Lahinch has this system:

Yellow - Front
Red - Middle
Blue - Back

and I am so used to it now I cant imagine we used to have all the front 9 holes yellow, and back 9 red. The daily pin sheet is far too time consuming for the green staff apparaently. Although I cant imagine why! If the Greens Committee decide on a rota, and print these out with the basic schematics of the greens but give leeway to the greens staff as to where to cut the hole (ie it will be front right, just not neccessarily 4 yards on, 6 from the right)

Though I do side with the tradionalists that it "looks" better to have a uniform colour on each 9, it hardly detracts from the experience that much....

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Flag colors to indicate hole position - my letter to a member
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2008, 07:09:02 PM »

I like knowing where the hole is on the green.

Why ?
What difference does it make ?
Are you that good of a golfer that you can hit the ball to the precise distance ?
Does + / - 5 yards have that much impact on your game ?
What is your handicap ?
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There is no thrill at all to silly guessing games.


What guessing game.
The flag is clearly visible on 95+ % of the holes we play.
It's on the green and its offset from the edge of the green, what more do you need to know that your eyes don't tell you ?
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A truly blind or semi-blind shot where you can't see the target is great, I think we need more of them. But those shots should be able to stand on their own merits even with knowledge of the day's bloody pin position.

If they're blind shots, how would you know where the flag is ?  
Even with a color coded flag ?
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Any course on which the experience of playing is ruined by knowing where the hole is on the green ain't much of a course.

Color coded flags are merely crutches for whinners and the "fair" play advocates.  And, the really funny thing is that most who clamor for them don't have the ability to adjust their shot repetoire to take advantage of the knowledge.  Hit it to the middle of the green and you won't have any worries.

How difficult is it to judge where the flag is from 100 yards, 130 yards, 160 yards and 190 yards ?
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Surely a good course by good architect should have more going for it than simply obscuring the difference between a front hole location and a back one. That's baby stuff.

You don't get it.

That's one of the architects goals, to deceive the golfer.
It's one of the elements of his artistry.
An element that you want to eliminate through artificial means so that he doesn't fool you.  You want a guide or cheater's aid to help you overcome the brilliant tactical signal that the architect has sent to your eye for the very purpose of deceiving you.

You're not a purist, you're a pretender, a "fair" golf advocate.

TEPaul's farm is full of them, but, there's room for one more.
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And finally anyone whose experience of playing a course is ruined by seeing flags of three different colors has a sadly limited perspective on golf and on golf courses.

Why not eight colors ?   The colors of the rainbow.  Then you can really zero in on the hole.    What's your handicap ?
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Playing golf with someone like that must be like eating out with Frasier and Niles Crane.

Don't ask to join Ran, TEPaul and myself for a round.
We already have a threesome.
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Will MacEwen

Re: Flag colors to indicate hole position - my letter to a member
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2008, 07:09:20 PM »
Lots of courses seem to go on a three day rotation, with day one being -front middle back starting on one, day two being middle back front, etc.  This allows for the same colour flags and seems to work okay - I think the Bandon courses do this.  You don't need pin sheets, you don't need more than one colour of flag.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flag colors to indicate hole position - my letter to a member
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2008, 07:15:14 PM »
And finally anyone whose experience of playing a course is ruined by seeing flags of three different colors has a sadly limited perspective on golf and on golf courses.
I wouldn't mind as much if there were three colours of flag that look good.  However white or red are the only appropriate colours that should be used on golf courses.  Blue, yellow and green flags fail to compliment the natural colours of the golf course and too often fail to serve their purpose by blending into background colours. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Brent Hutto

Re: Flag colors to indicate hole position - my letter to a member
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2008, 07:33:18 PM »
Pat M,

I've never made any claim to purism, minimalism or any other "ism". I haven't played with you or Mr. Paul but I've played with Ran and colored flags don't seem to ruin his enjoyment at all. A five-yard difference bothers me not at all, a thirty-five yard difference between front and back with no possible way to know which it is would bother a golfer of even the meanest skill level.

David E,

Blue, yellow and green sound ugly as hell. Well yellow isn't terrible and green might be tolerable depending on the shade but blue? Yikes!

Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flag colors to indicate hole position - my letter to a member
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2008, 08:08:53 PM »
People prefer the colored flags to indicate position or they don't.  Or some don't care either way, like me.

I'm not sure a letter, which reads more like a lecture, to a member will sway their opinion....ever.  I'm sure your were being completely sincere with him/her but I bet most say minimalist shminimalist, who cares.  I just want to know if the hole is front, middle, or back.

I've always felt like it helped to speep up overall play.  I know I've played faster.



Mike Sweeney

Re: Flag colors to indicate hole position - my letter to a member
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2008, 08:20:50 PM »

Lastly, there's the factor that almost no all great courses use the colored flag system.   Look at the better clubs in our area, and you'll see that very few, if any, use colored flags.  Merion (Wilson), Pine Valley (Crump), Stonewall (Doak/Hanse), Hidden Creek (Coore & Crenshaw), Gulph Mills (Ross), etc...   None use colored flags.    Nor do world class public courses like Pacific Dunes (Doak).



Sorry but this is a bad analogy. Every course listed here has caddies that conceptually know the pin positions and exact yardage. I don't think that French Creek does. French Creek seems more like Yale with walking and carting on a property with elevation. Yale has a colored flag system.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Flag colors to indicate hole position - my letter to a member
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2008, 08:22:45 PM »
Pat M,

I've never made any claim to purism, minimalism or any other "ism". I haven't played with you or Mr. Paul but I've played with Ran and colored flags don't seem to ruin his enjoyment at all. A five-yard difference bothers me not at all,

a thirty-five yard difference between front and back with no possible way to know which it is would bother a golfer of even the meanest skill level.

Not if you hit to the middle of the green.
You'd have a 37.5 foot putt at the most.
[/color]


Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flag colors to indicate hole position - my letter to a member
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2008, 09:52:18 PM »
This has a lot of resemblence to the issue of yardage markers where so-called traditionalists are concerned.  They will claim that colored flags are wrong, similar to sprinkler heads or GPS/laser aids.  But they've got no problem with a caddie, armed with the information through his own memory or yardage book/pin sheet, giving a player the same information.  Hypocrisy!

Let's face it, the pin location is "public" information that anyone can find out if they are willing to go to the trouble of walking the course beforehand, asking a guy coming off 18 before you go to the first tee, being observant, whatever.  If you wanted to make it a guessing game from the fairway why not use flags of different heights (like they do in some UK courses, though they do it there because of the wind and terrain)  Or hell, why not dispose of the flag entirely?  It would sure make it advantageous to hit one's drive onto a hilltop so you could look down on the green to see where the hole is cut ;)

I think its silly to be opposed to the information itself, though I could see an aesthetic argument against the color flags, especially if it was a course like Merion where it would take something away to see colored wicker baskets.

I see some courses that solve the problem by having a map on the back of the scorecard that carves the hole into 6 or 9 numbered zones, and they'll say at the starter shed or clubhouse "today's pin position is 3" and then you just look up where 3 is for each hole.  The only problem is that if hole 4 is back right then you know the 5th is always going to be front left, for instance, which would limit variety if you played there a lot, I would think.

Most of the courses around here use colored flags, though the colors aren't always the same.  Some use white for front, others white is middle, etc.  But once you know how it works its pretty simple.  My home course at least does not limit itself to 6 front, 6 middle, 6 back as some have indicated.  I guess it is a bit more work since they'd have to carry around a few extra flags, but its nice that some days you get a helluva lot of back flags, some days there are just a few.  Sometimes they give the back flags with a front tee, sometimes you get back flag and back tee, so it varies the lengths of the holes.  Even when the wind is steady or nonexistent for a few consecutive days you may end up 4-5 clubs different on the same hole which is a nice variety (especially since all our par 3s are about the same yardage from the back tees, so wind or pin/tee position is the only way to make them require different clubs)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flag colors to indicate hole position - my letter to a member
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2008, 10:09:08 PM »
I am an absolute traditionalist and would 100% agree with no yardage markers of any kind, no hole information, no lasers, no GPS units, baskets instead of flags, no yardage books and I see no need for a driving range. 

Stretch a little, hit it (no mulligans) and play golf.  Use your eyes and judgement and pull a club.  (My club copied Merion and has baskets and not flags.  Although some of my research leads me to believe that baskets had little to do with trying to deceive people about the wind).

BUT, it's a different game no and people expect different things.  The horse is out of the barn and she ain't coming back :(

I do think having no flags at all would make no difference to 80% of golfers at the average golf course. 

I did consider no yardages when I re-opened but I would have had a revolt and it wasn't worth it--hell, the seniors still bitch about the baskets and despite the fact that I have every sprinkler head marked and 150 and 200 brass plates on the cart paths I did take away a red, white and blue cinder block in each fairway that denoted 100, 150 and 200 yardages and the blue hairs are still upset!!

It's a brave new golf world and a lot of it just sux >:(  Some folks just will never "get it" and they are easily in the majority now.

As far as the colored flags my biggest opposition is that they look like crap.  A long time ago we had those and of course when a hole location was a "tweener" it was never "right" for the guy whose ball ended up a long way away!



Eric Pevoto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flag colors to indicate hole position - my letter to a member
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2008, 11:01:31 PM »
Dan,

Nice letter.  You could also add that most greens at FC that don't have clear sight lines are also angled.  You can tell the depth by judging left/right position. 

The character of the place doesn't need any comparison to other golf courses.  Too much easy information is counter to the spirit of Gil's design. 

Any course on which the experience of playing is ruined by knowing where the hole is on the green ain't much of a course. Surely a good course by good architect should have more going for it than simply obscuring the difference between a front hole location and a back one. That's baby stuff.

Brent, 
That's the whole point:  if you pay any attention to the architecture, you can figure out the depth of the pin.  These greens are angled and have areas that any astute player knows are unpinnable.  It's a private course, so the members know their way around the place (or they should).

I'll add to Chris Cupit's, most of these guys who are whining about this would do better to just try and hit a GREEN once in a while let alone worry about the pin.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2008, 11:03:53 PM by Eric Pevoto »
There's no home cooking these days.  It's all microwave.Bill Kittleman

Golf doesn't work for those that don't know what golf can be...Mike Nuzzo

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Flag colors to indicate hole position - my letter to a member
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2008, 11:30:53 PM »
People have such divergent opinions on this issue that there is no right response, and I've just given up having any opinion on the subject.  I don't really mind colored flags -- Crystal Downs uses them -- although I am sure it is a pain for the maintenance guys to deal with them every day.

Today I played Rock Creek for the first time.  To date they have no yardage markers at all -- there was nothing on the sprinkler heads, and there weren't even flags in the holes on the greens today!  All I had was my knowledge of what we had tried to build.  I made my usual one birdie and a few pars in spite of the lack of information.

Wayne_Freedman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Flag colors to indicate hole position - my letter to a member
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2008, 11:45:50 PM »
Sorry Dan,

I appreciate your sentiments, but the person who complained won't get it. If he did get it, he wouldn't have written the letter. And, your letter, while well-intentioned, comes across as a bit preachy.

My course rotates hole positions AND uses colored flags, which seems a bit stupid, but one must remember that the average golfer rarely breaks 90 and is not attuned to the subtleties of design.

It comes down to serving a greater good and improving the experiences of everyday players.

If you were color-blind, none of this would matter. For your sensibilities,  I recommend the condition.

 ;)




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