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Melvyn Morrow

Re: "The Early Architectects--Beyond Old Tom"
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2008, 08:42:57 AM »
“The Dark Ages of Golf Architecture” How can we call that period between 1850-1900 the Dark Ages. Just because those that followed judged the early designers not on what they had actually achieved but what they consider was important in their day (the 20th Century).

Why, I can only put it down to simple ignorance and not understanding the enormity of what had been accomplished in the last 50 years of the 19th Century. As I mention earlier, the inventor of the wheel “set the fundamentals, the design criteria, the shape of things to come”. Future generations continued to develop, strengthen, refine the wheel, yet it’s only been approximately 100 years since the pneumatic tyres was fitted to the wheel, but the fundamental design concept has not changed.

Would the pneumatic tyre wheel have assisted the Ancient Egyptians, Romans or Greeks – answer that from their perspective? Then ask that question again in the light of our modern age and what we know. Using my knowledge of the 20th & 21st Century, IMHO it could have made a difference but they just did not have the technology or the pneumatic tyre wheel. Yet what each of those Civilisations achieved is still a wonder in our age.

Ignorance is no real excuse, it just proves a lack of real understanding of events – I regret that I have been guilty of that charge in the past and expect I will again in the future. This 19th Century period was indeed The Early Golden Age of Golf.

Kyle

It’s not Crap, just showing a sign of appreciation and acknowledging their achievements based upon the standards of the day.

“Golf architecture hasn't even reached the point of being a craft or art” – I agree and IMHO, craft or art or Arts and Craft has nothing to do with designing a golf course or the Game of Golf.

As for true criticism, unless we have the full information of the Clients Brief to the Architect, then we have not right to criticise. Once the brief has been agreed how many Clients stick to it – not many for various reasons i.e.  site conditions, financial, cosmetic and simply because of a change of mind.
Some similarity to my first paragraph.   

Kyle Harris

Re: "The Early Architectects--Beyond Old Tom"
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2008, 08:49:31 AM »
“The Dark Ages of Golf Architecture” How can we call that period between 1850-1900 the Dark Ages. Just because those that followed judged the early designers not on what they had actually achieved but what they consider was important in their day (the 20th Century).

Why, I can only put it down to simple ignorance and not understanding the enormity of what had been accomplished in the last 50 years of the 19th Century. As I mention earlier, the inventor of the wheel “set the fundamentals, the design criteria, the shape of things to come”. Future generations continued to develop, strengthen, refine the wheel, yet it’s only been approximately 100 years since the pneumatic tyres was fitted to the wheel, but the fundamental design concept has not changed.

Would the pneumatic tyre wheel have assisted the Ancient Egyptians, Romans or Greeks – answer that from their perspective? Then ask that question again in the light of our modern age and what we know. Using my knowledge of the 20th & 21st Century, IMHO it could have made a difference but they just did not have the technology or the pneumatic tyre wheel. Yet what each of those Civilisations achieved is still a wonder in our age.

Ignorance is no real excuse, it just proves a lack of real understanding of events – I regret that I have been guilty of that charge in the past and expect I will again in the future. This 19th Century period was indeed The Early Golden Age of Golf.

Kyle

It’s not Crap, just showing a sign of appreciation and acknowledging their achievements based upon the standards of the day.

“Golf architecture hasn't even reached the point of being a craft or art” – I agree and IMHO, craft or art or Arts and Craft has nothing to do with designing a golf course or the Game of Golf.

As for true criticism, unless we have the full information of the Clients Brief to the Architect, then we have not right to criticise. Once the brief has been agreed how many Clients stick to it – not many for various reasons i.e.  site conditions, financial, cosmetic and simply because of a change of mind.
Some similarity to my first paragraph.   


Melvyn,

I tend to agree with the premise that the spirit of the Arts and Crafts movement lent itself to much of the landed gentry of the US and England to turning to golf and golf architecture as a craft that needed to be refined, however, very few took up the spirit of the early architects and instead began to mass produce. I don't see a direct correlation, but I definitely feel that the spirit of the early architects was in accordance with the overall "Arts and Crafts" movement.

As for the misuse of "Golden Age"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Golden%20AGE


Melvyn Morrow

Re: "The Early Architectects--Beyond Old Tom"
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2008, 09:25:41 AM »
Kyle

Who is Right, will we ever know? But it’s my Honest & Humble Opinion
after undertaking some little research of the 19th Century

The Golden Age, I understand the meaning & history of Golf. As for misuse –rather arrogant of you, perhaps even slightly insulting. 

Arts & Craft –that subject should be regarded as crap, but think we will just have to have to agree to disagree. 

Kyle Harris

Re: "The Early Architectects--Beyond Old Tom"
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2008, 09:30:28 AM »
Kyle

Who is Right, will we ever know? But it’s my Honest & Humble Opinion
after undertaking some little research of the 19th Century

The Golden Age, I understand the meaning & history of Golf. As for misuse –rather arrogant of you, perhaps even slightly insulting. 

Arts & Craft –that subject should be regarded as crap, but think we will just have to have to agree to disagree. 


Melvyn,

I just won't concede that golf's best days are behind us. I find that thought rather depressing, especially as it applies to golf architecture.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: "The Early Architectects--Beyond Old Tom"
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2008, 10:32:29 AM »
Kyle

“I just won't concede that golf's best days are behind us. I find that thought rather depressing, especially as it applies to golf architecture.”

I am not saying they are, far from it. But what is wrong with having more than one Golden Age, then in time judge the Best of the Golden Ages.

Regrettable I do not thing we are in one of them, not a criticism of Architects or Designers, more the sites being selected for our modern courses. This requirement of having them part of a development, I believe lays down specific restraints which is not conducive to actually allowing the designer free scope. Yet the finance for the course comes via the development.

Not our finest hour, but I have not given up hope and believe once we decide what we actually want and with our governing bodies support, we will be able to move forward again. Perhaps the future environmental constraints will have a positive effect on locations and allow our architects to produce the courses that golf requires. 

The debate goes on regards re slow play, currently no real answer apart from more time between players on the first Tee. Or the use of one or two 18 hole course and two 9 hole for those who like a break between the font & back nine. Perhaps with a short Pitch & Putt course and Driving Range. Three or four option for the casual (average) golfer and one or two for the more serious among us. One thing is for certain the debate will go on. 

I certainly would not argue against the suggestion that we have had two Golden Ages in the last 170 years, that has really helped to improve and  develop golf. I hope we are not too far off the next one.   
 

TEPaul

Re: "The Early Architectects--Beyond Old Tom"
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2008, 11:29:24 AM »
“Tom Paul can I ask you to revise some of your opinions?

E.G.  that all anyone needs to know about golf design history is contained in the introduction to The Architects of GOLF by Cornish and Whitten.  While I agree it’s an excellent summary it is so far short of the whole story that to suggest that someone should keep on researching and then no matter what they discover the must refer back to the received history by C&W is one of the loonier ideas I’ve ever read on here.”

Tony:

If you think my opinions are what you said there after the “E.G.” I don’t know that I need to change them because those are not my opinions. Here’s what I said about Part One of Cornish and Whitten:

“Frankly, I think Part One of Cornish and Whitten's book treats this entire era much better and in more informative way for a reader, even if it’s fairly general. I've never found that much of anything to top it, even if it does not treat or even mention some of the lesser known architects from that time, only a few of the ones most all of us have heard of.”

First, I did not say and do not mean that anyone should always refer back to Cornish and Whitten’s Part One in the “Architects of Golf”. Where do you see I said that? What I did say is it just has always felt to me like an extremely logical explanation of what happened in that era we are talking about here, even if its fairly general. I just don’t see much of anything in their Part One that just doesn’t seem to wring true to what really happened in that era and why.

On the other hand, it seems to me there are a few explanations in Tom MacWood’s essay I, for one, would like to question the historical accuracy of, for fear that it may be an inaccurate opinion of an historic era that may pass for fact in the future, if accepted as fact. Here is one such example, and it may appear, at first, to be a small one, unless someone really considers the significance of it.

Here’s what he said:

“Like most of his fellow architects at that time Park’s success (or lack of success) could easily be predicted. When given good material near the sea he produced good results, when given an ordinary inland site he did nothing of consequence—that is until 1899. That year he began Sunningdale, and it was a major advancement. It was considered revolutionary for two primary reasons: first its scale was enormous for that time, and secondly the severity of the site, not only topographically but also in the nature of the ground. At that time it was considered unadvisable to make a course over sandy ground overgrown with heather. Sunningdale was the first course to be wholly sown from seed, at a considerable cost I might add.”

I have no problem with what he said there until he mentioned; ‘At that time it was considered unadvisable to make a course over sandy ground overgrown with heather. Sunningdale was the first course to be wholly sown from seed, at a considerable cost, I might add.’

This is what Cornish and Whitten had to say about the apparently revolutionary and perhaps even phenomenal event that took place beginning in 1899 in the English heathlands with the creation of Sunningdale and Huntercombe by Willie Park Jr:

   “Dozens of sorry inland courses built on impervious clay soils convinced most golf purists that only the ancient links could produce excellent golf. But a few golf course prospectors were unconvinced and kept searching for suitable terrain comparable to the best linksland. Their search was fruitful, for at the turn of the century they unearthed a mother lode of fine golfing land less than fifty miles from London.
   Here were the “heathlands”, with well drained, rock free, sandy soil in gently undulating terrain. This was true golf country, and its discovery was a major step in the development of golf course architecture. Many of the world’s greatest courses have since been created on land similar to that of the heaths, which except for the presence of trees, is not unlike the links. The long delay in the discovery of the heathlands, despite their proximity to London is not difficult to understand. The heathlands were covered with an undergrowth of heather, rhododendrons, Scotch fir and pines. Only a fool, it seemed, would spend time building a golf course in such a wasteland when vast meadows were available for the purpose.”
   The “fools” that did build courses in the heathlands became the most prominent golf architects of their day. Four names in particular stand out: Willie Park Jr, J.F. Abercromby, H.S. Colt and W. Herbert Fowler. Their prominence was due in part to their vision in recognizing the true potential of this unlikely terrain and in a part to their ability to shape the land into splendid golf holes.”

The problem I have with what Tom MacWood said about the discovery of the heathlands is that he seems to suggest that golfers and architects before its discovery had some problem with sandy well draining soil! I don’t think so, perhaps just the opposite in fact----they realized its benefits ala the linksland, it was simply a matter of the fact they had not yet discovered its existence inland before that---eg most of those impervious clay soil meadows they had been laying out all those less than appealing courses on that seemed to be either soggy when wet or alternatively baked like a dirt road when not wet, not to mention the rather disappointing agronomic results as a consequence of that, was simply something they’d been living with inland for a few decades because they had not yet DISCOVERED a vastly beneficial alternative inland that the discovery of the healthland terrain and soil makeup finally offered in 1899.

The point of the discovery of the healthlands is it offered well draining and a far more similar soil structure reminiscent of the linksland itself. It was merely that this well draining terrain had not been discovered until 1899 because it resided hidden under heather, rhododendrens, Scotch pine and fir. The expense necessary to strip it away and to actually have to “seed” to produce good golf turf and playability was simply a reality of good golf and architecture that also needed to be discovered and admitted to, with its incumbent need to take the time to work on a golf course’s architecture and agronomy that had really not been done on most all courses and architecture that preceded it inland. That realization was also part of the significance of the heathland discovery for the future of great golf course architecture inland around the world.

In other words, Cornish and Whitten treat it well and realistically, in my opinion, by treating it as the pure discovery it was and not something that it took previous golfers and architects time to simply getting around to finally admitting too. In my opinion, it was something that was theretofore not understood at all and which led to so many disappointing inland courses during the approximately two decade era that came before the heathlands with inland courses outside the linksland.

I believe, much of all that is captured in Sir Guy Campbell’s remark that was included in Tom MacWood’s essay;


“By that time, however, the game had become so popular here, there, and in a manner of speaking, everywhere, as to create an undeniable demand for ‘handly’ golf, regardless of whether nature had already prepared the way, or the ground available suitable. Where nature and the ground were kind and such ventures in landscaping were undertaken by players of experience and some artistic sensibility, the results, especially on links land, met with a measure of success. Elsewhere, and with the undertaking at the mercy of unprenticed hands, the results were not always happy. But—and this was an innovation—man starting as it were from scratch, and with recollections, too often uncertain, of established links and courses, set out to lay down fairways, hazards and greens, at dimensions, shapes and positions of his own choosing.”


I also have something of a problem with this from his essay as to its historic accuracy:

“Another observation surrounds the phenomenon of the amateur architect. This was a time when amateurs were making significant contributions throughout society—in the sciences and in the arts and elsewhere. The factors contributing to amateurism included superior education, the unprecedented dissemination of information (through books, magazines, newspapers, libraries, museums, etc,) and increased leisure, allowing time to follow other pursuits.  John Ruskin, Robert Chambers, Nathaniel Lloyd, and Gertrude Jekyll are individuals who made major contributions in fields outside their formal training. Based on the societal trend it is no surprise golf produced its own group of amateur architects. It should also be noted that professionals, or more seasoned amateurs, often assisted these amateur architects. There has been a tendency to ignore that fact and give these amateurs a mythical persona. I hope we have avoided this pitfall.”

This remark---‘It should also be noted that professionals, or more seasoned amateurs, often assisted these amateur architects. There has been a tendency to ignore that fact and give these amateurs a mythical persona. I hope to we have avoided this pitfall.------ just seems to me to be another “foot-in-the-door” rationale that people like Tom MacWood has basically always used to make the assumptions that men like Crump and Wilson could not possibly have done what it seems they did without more help from the likes of Colt and Macdonald than most likely actually happened. I think this type of rationale is the very thing that taken too far has led a David Moriarty to assume that C.B. Macdonald MUST HAVE routed (and perhaps by implication, designed) Merion East and that all Hugh Wilson and his committee were capable of doing, at that time, was simply somehow “constructing” to that Macdonald routing and design!

It is not as if these men did not seek advice from men like Macdonald or Colt and the suggestions of others, and in Merion's case, likely in some areas that were not specifically architecture (more like the "amateur committee" modus operandi from Macdonald and Whigam), it’s just that men like Crump and Wilson very much probably do deserve their mythical personas for what they really did do on their own!

We should never forget the obvious fact that is always at the forefront and that is we do need to understand the potential meaning of what a few days advice really could mean compared to the years and years some of these amateurs put in on their select projects like Oakmont, Myopia, Pine Valley, Merion East, or even NGLA, for that matter.


« Last Edit: June 01, 2008, 11:37:44 AM by TEPaul »

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Early Architectects--Beyond Old Tom"
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2008, 01:39:44 PM »
Tom If I only had a penny for every time you’ve written that Tom Mac needs to check out that intro then....   So yes after 4 years of reading your posts on here that’s what I take your opinion to be.  Maybe I’m wrong but if anyone knows how to isolate your posts on C&W using the search engine?

The IMO piece contains we are told 13000 words and these two points in a very wordy post are your objections to it?  These are the sole reasons why you don’t welcome the valuable work that’s gone on here?

 

I have no problem with what he said there until he mentioned; ‘At that time it was considered unadvisable to make a course over sandy ground overgrown with heather. Sunningdale was the first course to be wholly sown from seed, at a considerable cost, I might add.’


Once again Tom and others are giving you real info that you choose to ignore or just aren’t reading, presumably because it isn’t contained in C&W.

On the following contemporary thread there’s an article, from back in the day, saying more than 100,000 loads of sand were imported to Sunningdale. 
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34792.0.html
Tom Mac explains why it was a difficult site.  New Zealand (a few miles away) was cut through forest.  There was another recent thread that discussed reasons why the Heathland breakthrough occurred and again you wont’ find any of it in C&W.  As I say on that thread many, C&W included, don’t fully understand the true nature of Heathland soil.
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34396.0.html
(Don’t let the fact that real research by David Moriaty prompted some thinking in this thread scare you away or lead you to the conclusion it must be wrong.)

I find Tom MacWood views accurate here.

Secondly.

I also have something of a problem with this from his essay as to its historic accuracy:


This remark---‘It should also be noted that professionals, or more seasoned amateurs, often assisted these amateur architects. There has been a tendency to ignore that fact and give these amateurs a mythical persona. I hope to we have avoided this pitfall.------ just seems to me to be another “foot-in-the-door” rationale that people like Tom MacWood has basically always used to make the assumptions that men like Crump and Wilson could not possibly have done what it seems they did without more help from the likes of Colt and Macdonald than most likely actually happened. I think this type of rationale is the very thing that taken too far has led a David Moriarty to assume that C.B. Macdonald MUST HAVE routed (and perhaps by implication, designed) Merion East and that all Hugh Wilson and his committee were capable of doing, at that time, was simply somehow “constructing” to that Macdonald routing and design!



What? It seems to me Tom MacWood is arguing the opposite in his piece – that the Amateur contribution during this period has been ignored.
 Tom if anyone’s agenda is plain here it’s yours.  Judge the piece on what written in it.  Don’t drag Moriaty into it and give credit where credit is due.

Feel freeto put me straight on this but I can tell you in advance I won’t be getting involved in any GCA dogfight here and these are my last words to you on this subject. 

Where can I pre order the Flynn book?
« Last Edit: June 01, 2008, 01:42:36 PM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

TEPaul

Re: "The Early Architectects--Beyond Old Tom"
« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2008, 03:37:13 PM »
"Tom If I only had a penny for every time you’ve written that Tom Mac needs to check out that intro then....   So yes after 4 years of reading your posts on here that’s what I take your opinion to be.  Maybe I’m wrong but if anyone knows how to isolate your posts on C&W using the search engine?

The IMO piece contains we are told 13000 words and these two points in a very wordy post are your objections to it?  These are the sole reasons why you don’t welcome the valuable work that’s gone on here?"

Tony Muldoon:

Yes, that is what my opinion is of C&W's Part One and I have said it for years. All I'm saying about it is even if it does not mention architects other than the relatively well-known ones from that era I think it's over-all conclusions of what happened, how and why in the heathlands seems very sound to me and historically accurate. But I'm always willing to consider changing my opinions on that if something seemingly sound is produced to refute it.

And yes, as far as I can tell having read Tom MacWood's essay once that the points I made are my only objections to it at this time or questions about it, at this time. What did you expect, that I'd condemn the whole thing? ;)

I certainly agree there is a ton of detailed research in his essay about a number of amateurs and others who are not well known. That's fine, and Tom MacWood is well known for that type of well and intricate research on people and places and such but for me it's always been the premises and conclusions he draws from it that interests me most. Much of his conclusions have been written on here for years---eg that most all of them were fairly wealthy, independent, well educated and imaginative, that they generally put a vast amount of time into particular projects, compared to the fast moving peripatetic professionals of that time, etc, etc. I only mentioned that because it is not new information to me or to some of the posts on here from the past.

Maybe you just expect me to blindly praise the whole thing without much further comment as many do on here but I'd prefer to find those things I don't agree with and discuss them. What is wrong with that? We're all trying to learn and to learn the truth here about what went on back then, and how and why, aren't we?

It almost seems like this website has become totally averse to any kind of criticism of these seemingly research laden essays, even criticisms of them of the constructive type. It's almost as if some of these essays are put out there and even if the authors or others say they seek criticisms and questions on their historic accuracy when criticisms and questions do arrive they act as if it's some kind of personal insult.

Frankly, I just don't get that at all.

And I am always wary of some essays trying to make a good deal more out of something they come across in the broad scheme of some subject. I think a good example of that is this apparent reference to the potential importance of H.H. Barker on the creation of Merion East. From all that we've been able to determine with far more in-depth research that particular event seemingly had almost zero effect and influence on the Men who were in the process of creating Merion.

So why should we not question that implication in that essay that it may be far more important than previously known? At some point, unless something of significance is producted it's probably just time to let go of some of these seemingly insignificant "what if" scenarios and theories that just don't seem to have any basis in fact.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2008, 03:49:49 PM by TEPaul »

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Early Architectects--Beyond Old Tom"
« Reply #33 on: June 01, 2008, 04:26:49 PM »
I enjoyed the IMHO piece, but I'd be careful of accepting some of his facts as gospel. Some of what he states as facts are  at least controversial. Since many of his amateur and professional architects come from East Lothian, Rev. John Kerr's The Golf Book of East Lothian, published in 1896, can be a valuable resource. Not infallible, but a look at a primary source.

The Rev. Kerr was a contemporary and friend of B. Hall Blyth. Both were members together of the Honorable Company of Edinburgh Golfers. Kerr gives no credit to Blyth for Muirfield, writing about the opening ceremony:

The new green at Muirfield was opened on May 3, 1891... Old Tom Morris, who had laid out the course, having teed the ball, Sir Alexander got away a nice drive, and the bystanders  raised a hearty cheer. The first match was a three-ball one, in which Mr. B. Hall Blyth played single-handed against Mr. A. Stuart and Mr. F. V. Hagart.

Mr.  Edward Yates wrote about the move to Muirfield, published in the Edinburgh Evening Dispatch on May 1 and 2, 1891:

Old Tom is a veritable makkar -- his is 'the vision and the faculty divine' for making golf-greens ; how I felt that as I walked beside him, he glanced 'from heaven to earth, from earth to heaven,' taking in the situation at every point! The holes were then put to shape, and soon the 'local habitation and the name' of the new links of the Honourable Company were flashed through all the golfing world. Another green to bear witness to the skills of the grand old greenmaker! What a record he must have of the making of greens!

David [Plenderleith] is the man who was left to carry out old Tom's designs and superintend the whole operation.

Yates doesn't mention Blyth until his report of the opening ceremony:

Hall Blyth, with many a plan beneath his arm (what an Apollo Belvidere he will make when his statue is erected, as it ought to be, by-and-by, in the clubhouse vestibule!)

It is possible both Kerr and Yates give Old Tom more credit than he deserves because having his name attached to Muirfield would be beneficial to its reputation. But both are also proud of the accomplishments of East Lothians and it would have been hard to give a Fife man credit for something an East Lothian accomplished, especially an East Lothian who was also a fellow member of the Honourable Company.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
All that's bright must fade, and we who play,
Like those before us, soon must pass away ;
Yet it requires no prophet's skill to trace
The royal game through each succeeding race ;
While on the tide of generations flows,
It still shall bloom, a never-fading rose.
 --Mr.  Edward Yates Edinburgh Evening Dispatch May 1 and 2, 1891

Rich Goodale

Re: "The Early Architectects--Beyond Old Tom"
« Reply #34 on: June 01, 2008, 04:42:38 PM »
"Benjamin Hall Blyth was captain of Tantallon Golf Club in 1896-98. He was also captain of the Royal Liverpool Club (1885) and a life member of the Royal and Ancient Club. Hall Blyth was an engineer by profession and a consultant engineer to the North British and Great North of Scotland Railway companies. He was responsible for extending the North Berwick branch line to include stations at Aberlady, Luffness and Gullane.

Hall Blyth is credited with securing the transference of the Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers from Musselburgh to Muirfield and will always be associated with the acquisition of the Braid Hills as a municipal golf course by the citizens of Edinburgh. His father was also called Benjamin Hall Blyth (1819-1866) and he too had a long association with North Berwick. He built Kaimend House overlooking the famous Redan hole on the West Links as his residence and on his death he bequeathed enough funds to secure the building of the North Berwick Abbey Church in 1868."

Dan

This is from www.northberwick.org.uk.  Dare I say that it sounds like he might have played the same sort of role vis a vis the move to Muirfield as HG Lloyd did at Merion?

I also seem to remember that Blyth played a role in some of the numerous changes made to the WEst Links at North Berwick around the turn of the last century.  My sources are now back across the street where my neighbour, an NB member, lent them to me last year.  If anybody cares, I can try to check and see if my recollections are correct.

And yes, I would take Tom's research as being interesting and useful but not definitive.  I could see a number of errors and omissions on my frist reading, as I have said above.

Rich


Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Early Architectects--Beyond Old Tom"
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2008, 05:08:20 PM »
Rihc, You aren't trying to draw me into some Merion thread, are you?

I'm not arguing Blyth being involved in the moving of the Hounorable Company to East Lothian. I think there is a big difference between that and what Tom says:

His involvement with the New should not have come as a complete surprise, he had been heavily involved in the new layout at Muirfield in 1891 (along with Old Tom).

I think if he was so heavily involved, Kerr or Yates, fellow members of the Hounorable Company, would have made mention of his involvement. Its possible they had reason not to credit him, such as wanting to ensure Muirfield's reputation by saying it was a Old Tom designed course, but it does seem they go out of their way to avoid mentioning Blyth's heavy involvement.

Also Blyth's uncle, Mr. Edward L. I. Blyth's, report on North Berwick was what I used a while back when we discussed changes to the West Links. He doesn't mention his nephew making changes to the links. It's possible B. Hall Blyth's involvement happened after 1895, and therefore doesn't show up in Kerr's book or Edward Blyth's report.

Is Dougie Seaton your source? Wonderful man, Mr. Seaton. If you know the man, tell him Dan King says hi.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
'It has been cunningly laid oot, Cor'nel, as Maister Arthur Balfour's brither ae day said to me ; ay, cunningly laid oot.
 --David Plenderleith (on Muirfield]

Melvyn Morrow

Re: "The Early Architectects--Beyond Old Tom"
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2008, 06:05:33 PM »

Some may feel Old Tom overrated, even over credited, but we will just have to wait a few more days and read the book “Tom Morris of St Andrews The Colossus of Golf 1821-1908” By Dr David Malcolm & Peter Crabtree.

The promise of corrections to errors and myths, repeated over the years by writers and observers are due to be corrected and the real truth revealed. Some surprises perhaps, but until the book is issued we will have to wait and see.
 
I’ll make no comment apart from saying if Old Tom had not lived then I expect many of you would not know much about golf, let alone play the game today.

Rich Goodale

Re: "The Early Architectects--Beyond Old Tom"
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2008, 12:56:04 AM »
Hi Dan

I'm just the messenger, please don't shoot me!

Mr. Seaton is the source of what I quoted.  Never met him, unfortunately.  The full link to his fascinating "Origins of Golf at North Berwick" is as follows:

http://www.northberwick.org.uk/origins.html

Seaton only says that Blyth "is credited with securing the transference of the Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers from Musselburgh to Muirfield."  Getting back to Merion, I think this probably means (as I implied below) that he was a behind the scenes guy who arranged the land deal, like HG Lloyd.  You are right that Tom's statement of "heavy" involvement looks more like an example of irrational exuberence than scholarship, particularly as his essay is about golf course architecture and not real estate transactions.

I'll try to find out what I can about what Blyth (or his Uncle) did at North Berwick, at my leisure.

Rich

PS--vis a vis Scotland, will ye no come back again....?
PPS--did you see my recent post (also based on Seaton's work) that described how the Redan played when it was a par 4?

rfg

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Early Architectects--Beyond Old Tom"
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2008, 03:41:08 AM »
Richard Farnworth Goodale writes:
Mr. Seaton is the source of what I quoted.  Never met him, unfortunately.

If you are ever down in North Berwick be sure to let Mr. Seaton know you are coming. I think the two of you would hit it off. Hard to believe it has been a dozen years since I last saw him. Seems much more recent.

Much of what Seaton writes on the history comes out of Kerr's book -- at least the pre-1895 stuff.

You are right that Tom's statement of "heavy" involvement looks more like an example of irrational exuberence than scholarship, particularly as his essay is about golf course architecture and not real estate transactions.

I only brought up about Blyth because I had read about him before. I might get around to looking at some of the other guys McWood mentions. I'm not saying Kerr is infallible or anything. Its very possible he is wrong, or for some reason being intentionally inaccurate. I only brought it up because it is an alternate view, and one written by a contemporary and friend.

PS--vis a vis Scotland, will ye no come back again....?

I sure would like to. I just graduated from Sac State last week and I'm not sure what the next phase of my life will be like. If I go on to graduate school I might study the Scottish Enlightenment which would require some time in Scotland. Maybe a semester or two.

PPS--did you see my recent post (also based on Seaton's work) that described how the Redan played when it was a par 4?

I just found it. Interesting. Its hard to imagine the 15th hole, I assume played from somewhere near the current 17th tee. It would be a strange hole  coming to that green as it is now from the backside -- but that doesn't necessarily mean the green didn't get lots of change between then an now. Maybe we can Dougie involved in such a discussion.

Just in case TEPaul is reading, the below quote is about the French engineer Vauban's original redan lines.
Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
Most pre-Civil War period manuals maintained Vauban's dimensions for redan lines while suggesting only very minor adjustments. J. S. Macaulay described redan lines as having redans 260 yards apart with 30 yards of demi-gorge and capitals 44 yards long. He suggested that the redans be positioned at 200 yards (rather than 260) intervals to bring the prolongation of the redan capitals within musket range of collateral redan faces.
 --Civil War Field Fortifications Digital Research Library Dictionary of Fortifications: Redan Lines

TEPaul

Re: "The Early Architectects--Beyond Old Tom"
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2008, 07:43:33 AM »
"What? It seems to me Tom MacWood is arguing the opposite in his piece – that the Amateur contribution during this period has been ignored.
 Tom if anyone’s agenda is plain here it’s yours.  Judge the piece on what written in it.  Don’t drag Moriaty into it and give credit where credit is due.

Feel freeto put me straight on this but I can tell you in advance I won’t be getting involved in any GCA dogfight here and these are my last words to you on this subject."



Tony Muldoon:

If that is what Tom MacWood is arguing that is probably a good thing, in my opinion, provided those heretofore seemingly ignored amateurs on many of those courses put in the time on their projects that some I'm more specifically aware of such as Leeds, Fownes, Wilson and Crump did on their projects. 

I have no way of knowing, at this point, what those mentioned in Tom MacWood's essay did on their projects other than what he's said but I'm glad to see some additional detail provided by Dan King and Richard The Magnificant Farnesworth Goodale on some of those men and their projects.

Tom MacWood has always called for more research to be produced on a number of projects and on eras and certainly no one can say that's not a good thing. But at the end of the day it is what a researcher does with that research information that's important to me and that's why I tend to focus on assumptions, premises and certainly the conclusions essay writers make in their essays.

So, I would ask you or anyone else to look at his conclusion section. I certainly don't disagree with any of it other than a few points I already made but to me it's general and it certainly is made up of all the things many on here have been mentioning and talking about to do with this era for years---eg the back pages of this website are filled with it, check it out.

As Melvyn Morrow says, it seems like Tom MacWood's opinion of this era has evolved to perhaps a more historically accurate opinion and that's a good thing too if what he is trying to do is learn more about the subject.

One of the things I certainly believe in and have for years with some of these architects and their particular projects, such as Leeds of Myopia, Fownes of Oakmont, Wilson of Merion and Crump of Pine Valley, is that it seems to be pretty commonsensical that if they spent as much time on their projects as they undeniably did and someone comes in for a few days it is not rocket science to me to figure out who deserves architectural credit and attribution. Of course this presumes they did not just merely build to someone else's routing or design plan, and that is the very thing that always needs to be determined by all the available research material surrounding a course or subject.

To me it is not good at all that some researchers just challenge on here what they call "legends" or "myths" or a club's historical "status quo" with a bunch of peripheral research material that seems to have no basis in fact as to its significance to a project. They ask us to keep an open mind about what they're doing and that's fine too until it begins to look suspiciously like they really don't have anything at all to support their assumptions and premises and conclusions they base their theories and "what if" scenarios on.

But again, I encourage you to carefully read Tom MacWood's conclusion section and tell us what you've learned that you'd consider to be new information. That's about all I'm trying to discuss here.

Peter Pallotta

Re: "The Early Architectects--Beyond Old Tom"
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2008, 10:37:25 AM »
Tom M

Thank you. I want to read the essay again, and more carefully.

A couple of general thoughts/questions:

Off Sir Guy Campbell’s quote, i.e. “Where nature and the ground were kind and such ventures in landscaping were undertaken by players of experience and some artistic sensibility, the results, especially on links land, met with a measure of success.”  It seems to me that the same could be said of architecture 20 or 30 years later, or 50 or 60 years later, or even today – regardless of whether amateurs or professionals were involved.

In this very early period of amateur architects, were the very principles and foundational ideas about golf course design still being worked out? Were the courses mediocre only because some un-tried and in-experienced hands built them, or also because WHAT they thought worthy of building and the IDEAL they thought worthy to strive for was still being developed/fine tuned? 

Or, to put the thought another way: the principles of golf course architecture are either fixed or fluid, either essential and fundamental or a matter of changing tastes. If the former, the earliest courses might be mediocre by our standards either because no one had yet identified and/or articulated those principles, or, if they had been articulated, because the early amateurs simply did not know how to manifest those principles on the ground.

If that latter…well, then it’s just about changing tastes.   

Peter
« Last Edit: June 02, 2008, 11:49:17 AM by Peter Pallotta »

TEPaul

Re: "The Early Architectects--Beyond Old Tom"
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2008, 12:00:35 PM »
Peter:

I think one of the best explanations of what happened with golf architecture when it first emigrated out of the original Scottish linksland to other lands (England first, Ireland and America) was from Behr, when he said they took the letter or the game and its playing field out but they did not understand that the spirit of the linksland type of natural playing field could not be taken out too and so they adapted it to sites wholly incapable, in numerous ways, of receiving it. Clearly this lasted for perhaps a few decades and in the process early golfers and architectural practioners began to scientifically (mathematically) analyze it to make better sense of it which in Behr's mind was something that should never even be attempted.

After a few decades of that rudimentary and aesthetically unpleasing modus operandi of adaptation, the practioners began to realize how they could actually make architecture to more completely represent and mimic the original golf grounds of the linksland or its architectural principles in various ways----and the first seminal heathland courses probably best represented by Sunningdale and Huntercombe were examples of that. I have no doubt that break-through which also had real agronomic and playablility significance got the attention of inland golf project planners in America and elsewhere. Enter the likes of Americans such as Leeds, Emmet, Travis, Fownes, Wilson, Crump, Hunter et al.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2008, 12:03:52 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Early Architectects--Beyond Old Tom"
« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2008, 01:53:02 PM »
Dan,

Thanks for posting those interesting excerpts. 

Is it possible that you are reading a bit too much into Tom MacWood's essay?   I read the essay as an introduction to some notable men who have largely been ignored, but not as a detailed attempt to ferret out the exact details of each of their respective creative contributions for every course. 

You question MacWood's statement that Blyth was “heavily involved in the new layout.”   But MacWood also credits Old Tom, and explains the basis for his statement-- old minutes acknowledging his contribution in the acquisition of the property and “preparation” of the course.  I am uncertain if this is the only early account of his involvement, or if there are more.   

Would you have similar concerns had Macwood written that Blyth was heavily involved in the creation rather than the layout?   

Any thoughts on this plan, which was apparently based on one by Blyth?




I am sure Tom MacWood is pleased that his essay has got you and Rihc bringing forward this additional information.   I know that, as an interested bystander, I am. 

Thanks to you both.

Best,

David
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Early Architectects--Beyond Old Tom"
« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2008, 02:00:29 PM »
Dan,

Thanks for posting those interesting excerpts. 

Is it possible that you are reading a bit too much into Tom MacWood's essay?   I read the essay as an introduction to some notable men who have largely been ignored, but not as a detailed attempt to ferret out the exact details of each of their respective creative contributions for every course. 

You question MacWood's statement that Blyth was “heavily involved in the new layout.”   But MacWood also credits Old Tom, and explains the basis for his statement-- old minutes acknowledging his contribution in the acquisition of the property and “preparation” of the course.  I am uncertain if this is the only early account of his involvement, or if there are more.   

Would you have similar concerns had Macwood written that Blyth was heavily involved in the creation rather than the layout?   

Any thoughts on this plan, which was apparently based on one by Blyth?




I am sure Tom MacWood is pleased that his essay has got you and Rihc bringing forward this additional information.   I know that, as an interested bystander, I am. 

Thanks to you both.

Best,

David


David

I agree with you.  The piece reads like an intro for more detailed research/writing on particular people & courses - which I suspect is already in the works.  I enjoyed the piece and can't see any reason to get bent out of shape or bring up some of the names mentioned by TomP.  It is what it is - short and sweet.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Early Architectects--Beyond Old Tom"
« Reply #44 on: June 02, 2008, 02:49:58 PM »
DMoriarty writes:
Is it possible that you are reading a bit too much into Tom MacWood's essay?

I'd say it is extremely possible. It's a shame Mr. MacWood doesn't participate here.

Would you have similar concerns had Macwood written that Blyth was heavily involved in the creation rather than the layout?

I wouldn't have the same concerns. I got a sense from reading the essay that it was downplaying the contribution of Tom Morris in the original Muirfield. But maybe I was being sensitive to that and read in more than MacWood meant to present.

Any thoughts on this plan, which was apparently based on one by Blyth?

It's very interesting. My original thought was that perhaps Blyth as a civil engineer only created the plan from drawings done by Morris. But I don't feel good about that hypothesis. I'd like to know a little more about this plan by Blyth. Where did it come from? Was there any other material along with it?

am sure Tom MacWood is pleased that his essay has got you and Rihc bringing forward this additional information.   I know that, as an interested bystander, I am. 

I'm not sure why I jumped in. Most of my information is just a single source. My advice, if Mr. MacWood were to ask, would be to go through Mr. Kerr's book. It was reprinted a number of years ago. (I just looked around, no libraries in the worldcat database have a copy of the book and bookfinder has the reprint selling for $500. Perhaps I should stop opening my book since it appears to be worth more than a grand.)

Sean Arble writes:
I enjoyed the piece and can't see any reason to get bent out of shape or bring up some of the names mentioned by TomP.  It is what it is - short and sweet.

I hope I do not come across as bent out of shape. My point is history is rarely black and white. Kerr brings up issues that disagree with some of what MacWood found. It doesn't necessarily mean Kerr is right and MacWood is wrong. There are countless reasons one could be closer to the truth that the other, and I don't believe we will ever know for sure. It is important to look at alternate views of history.

I personally think Tom Morris is one of the greatest people in the history of the game of golf (I dressed as Old Tom at the first King's Putter on dress as your favorite architect day,) so any of my reading of the era will be colored with that belief. It would be difficult (but hopefully not impossible) to come off that core belief. My arguing against Blyth had more to do with Old Tom than disrespecting Blyth, who seems like an enjoyable chap.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
The first extension of the green into the park beyond the west wall was, I think, in 1870. There were three holes, the first being in the neighbourhood of Perfection (presently the fourteenth hole); from there we played to the south-west corner of the park, to where the fourth hole of the ladies' green now is; from that to the Redan, which was a lovely shot. I used to play it with my spoon -- a full drive, thrown high, so as to land on the table and escape the bunkers on either side; thence to the gate and Pointgarry, and from this home, as the Gas hole was given up on the removal of the gasworks from the links to the present site, thus making the round one of nine holes.
 --Edward L. I. Blyth (Uncle of B. Hall Blyth)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Early Architectects--Beyond Old Tom"
« Reply #45 on: June 02, 2008, 04:15:35 PM »


Any thoughts on this plan, which was apparently based on one by Blyth?

It's very interesting. My original thought was that perhaps Blyth as a civil engineer only created the plan from drawings done by Morris. But I don't feel good about that hypothesis. I'd like to know a little more about this plan by Blyth. Where did it come from? Was there any other material along with it?

I wondered that same thing, and it seemed odd to me that it was a plan based on a plan.  One would think that as an engineer, building architect, etc. that Blythe's plan would have been good enough to use. 


am sure Tom MacWood is pleased that his essay has got you and Rihc bringing forward this additional information.   I know that, as an interested bystander, I am. 

I'm not sure why I jumped in. Most of my information is just a single source. My advice, if Mr. MacWood were to ask, would be to go through Mr. Kerr's book. It was reprinted a number of years ago. (I just looked around, no libraries in the worldcat database have a copy of the book and bookfinder has the reprint selling for $500. Perhaps I should stop opening my book since it appears to be worth more than a grand.)

If you aren't going to open it you might as well sell it.  What's the use of a book you don't open?

Quote
I enjoyed the piece and can't see any reason to get bent out of shape or bring up some of the names mentioned by TomP.  It is what it is - short and sweet.

I hope I do not come across as bent out of shape. My point is history is rarely black and white. Kerr brings up issues that disagree with some of what MacWood found. It doesn't necessarily mean Kerr is right and MacWood is wrong. There are countless reasons one could be closer to the truth that the other, and I don't believe we will ever know for sure. It is important to look at alternate views of history.

You did not come across as bent out of shape to me, and I did not read Sean's post as referring to you, either.  I agree with your general view of history and that looking at alternate views.  I think that is in part what MacWood is doing, which is why I have no doubt that he appreciates your contribution.   Where else can he write about something so obscure and have someone respond with text from an 1896 book that is apparently not even listed in the worldcat library database?

DM
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Early Architectects--Beyond Old Tom"
« Reply #46 on: June 02, 2008, 05:18:12 PM »
Enter the King, great to see you back Dan.

Rich are you going to tell us what the couple of errors you've spotted are and as you mentioned doing this twice does it mean that you've now seen four?
Let's make GCA grate again!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Early Architectects--Beyond Old Tom"
« Reply #47 on: June 02, 2008, 06:08:17 PM »
DMoriarty writes:
Is it possible that you are reading a bit too much into Tom MacWood's essay?

I'd say it is extremely possible. It's a shame Mr. MacWood doesn't participate here.

Would you have similar concerns had Macwood written that Blyth was heavily involved in the creation rather than the layout?

I wouldn't have the same concerns. I got a sense from reading the essay that it was downplaying the contribution of Tom Morris in the original Muirfield. But maybe I was being sensitive to that and read in more than MacWood meant to present.

Any thoughts on this plan, which was apparently based on one by Blyth?

It's very interesting. My original thought was that perhaps Blyth as a civil engineer only created the plan from drawings done by Morris. But I don't feel good about that hypothesis. I'd like to know a little more about this plan by Blyth. Where did it come from? Was there any other material along with it?

am sure Tom MacWood is pleased that his essay has got you and Rihc bringing forward this additional information.   I know that, as an interested bystander, I am. 

I'm not sure why I jumped in. Most of my information is just a single source. My advice, if Mr. MacWood were to ask, would be to go through Mr. Kerr's book. It was reprinted a number of years ago. (I just looked around, no libraries in the worldcat database have a copy of the book and bookfinder has the reprint selling for $500. Perhaps I should stop opening my book since it appears to be worth more than a grand.)

Sean Arble writes:
I enjoyed the piece and can't see any reason to get bent out of shape or bring up some of the names mentioned by TomP.  It is what it is - short and sweet.

I hope I do not come across as bent out of shape. My point is history is rarely black and white. Kerr brings up issues that disagree with some of what MacWood found. It doesn't necessarily mean Kerr is right and MacWood is wrong. There are countless reasons one could be closer to the truth that the other, and I don't believe we will ever know for sure. It is important to look at alternate views of history.

I personally think Tom Morris is one of the greatest people in the history of the game of golf (I dressed as Old Tom at the first King's Putter on dress as your favorite architect day,) so any of my reading of the era will be colored with that belief. It would be difficult (but hopefully not impossible) to come off that core belief. My arguing against Blyth had more to do with Old Tom than disrespecting Blyth, who seems like an enjoyable chap.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
The first extension of the green into the park beyond the west wall was, I think, in 1870. There were three holes, the first being in the neighbourhood of Perfection (presently the fourteenth hole); from there we played to the south-west corner of the park, to where the fourth hole of the ladies' green now is; from that to the Redan, which was a lovely shot. I used to play it with my spoon -- a full drive, thrown high, so as to land on the table and escape the bunkers on either side; thence to the gate and Pointgarry, and from this home, as the Gas hole was given up on the removal of the gasworks from the links to the present site, thus making the round one of nine holes.
 --Edward L. I. Blyth (Uncle of B. Hall Blyth)

Dan

As David notes, I wasn't referring to you.  My words were more aimed at TomP.  Tony described it well.  If somebody doesn't fall hook line and sinker with C&W then TomP gets agitated and proceeds to tell the story of heathland golf again.  I think what Tom fails miserably to understand is that C&W merely provide a covering tree which badly needs its branches filled.  It is not a be all and end all to anything.  I believe that Tommy Mac has attempted to fill out some of the branches with a few of his essays.  Sure, they are theories, but at least they have grounding in something tangible.   

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "The Early Architectects--Beyond Old Tom"
« Reply #48 on: June 03, 2008, 12:57:17 AM »
Every art form seems to be purest at the beginning.

This may be a crude analogy, but when Elvis and Cash were blazing new territory in pop music, there was an interplay between them. I think that this same kind of dynamic was at work between the early architects of golf courses. They were certainly blazing new territory in the formation of the game, individually, but they were also aware of what others were doing. They were all inventing original ideas, but it was with an awareness of the originality of what other early architects were doing.

This aspect of early architecture is most fascinating to me. But we'll never be able to trace it or fully understand it all of these years later. I suspect that this had something to do with the whole Merion debate.

To this day, Little Richard takes credit for the Beatles woo-hoos and yea yeas, but it was actually art reflecting art in an early phase.


Rich Goodale

Re: "The Early Architectects--Beyond Old Tom"
« Reply #49 on: June 03, 2008, 03:19:51 AM »
Enter the King, great to see you back Dan.

Rich are you going to tell us what the couple of errors you've spotted are and as you mentioned doing this twice does it mean that you've now seen four?

Tony is use "couple of" in the American sense, i.e. more than one but less than "a lot of."  The second mention was just a reference to the first, as I have only gone over the essay once, and with a very open-toothed comb.

Having toiled a bit in the vineyards of golf course history I can only agree 100% with Dan when he says above:

".....history is rarely black and white. Kerr brings up issues that disagree with some of what MacWood found. It doesn't necessarily mean Kerr is right and MacWood is wrong. There are countless reasons one could be closer to the truth that the other, and I don't believe we will ever know for sure. It is important to look at alternate views of history."

As I said above, any errors and omissions I spotted were minor and not worth discussing for a number of reasons, not the least of which is to prevent turning this thread into another Merion fiasco, not to mention the, even though remote, possibility that he might be right and I might be wrong!  Tom has mostly reported the facts he thinks are important and as he sees them on a subject which is well known, but never before so thoroughly complied.  We should thank him for his efforts.

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