[Jon Nolan]

Blind shots are part of golf.  They can be wonderful.  They exist on the best of designs.  I wonder if there are places they should be considered, well... ill-considered. 

Certain courses may be classified as destination golf.  Sure there are locals playing regularly but the resorts basically exist for the golf tourist.  Blind shots on these courses bother me as typically I'm playing the course for the first time.  At best, I'm on my third or fourth round.  If I'm standing over a shot and I simply have no idea what to do it very much takes away from the experience.  A good stragegy (never mind result) on such a hole depends on (a) engaging a caddie (b) pulling a Padraig or (c) pure luck.  I have no problem with such shots on a course designed primarily for its members or the local community.  I don't enjoy having a blind hole on a course explicitly created for visitors. 

Obviously there are some great blind holes around the world and some of them are even on courses designed with a different audience in mind and which are now destination courses.  I'll throw out a few holes and ask for your thoughts.  You'll probably notice I contradict myself a bit.  Some holes are just fantastic no matter what   

Lahinch #5.  Great hole.  You have the rock to aim at and a miss has to be brutally bad in order to be punished.  Granted, the wind can hammer a good shot but the hole is so obvious a fit on that course I find myself loving it. 

Pebble Beach #6.  I've played it once and I ended up on the right side of the fairway.  I had no caddie and was carrying my bag.  Hiking up to figure out the line of the shot simply wasn't possible from an delay perspective.  I'm sure it's a great hole (you can't beat the location) but it disappointed me.  I felt I had to hit a very conservative safety shot.  It took much of the strategy out of the hole.  If I'd played it 5-6 times I'm sure I would think it a great hole.  #8 is similar but the blind shot is off the tee so everyone is in prime position from the get go.  The rock and/or player assistant is there to point you in the right direction.  A much different situation. 

Bandon Trails #14.  I've lurked here for a few weeks and know many of you like this hole.  I've played it once and it ruined the round for me.  Obviously from the top of the hill you know where your tee shot needs to end up but that's easier said than done for this player.  I ended up on the right half of the fairway and made a complete bollocks of the hole because I simply didn't have a clue what shot was in order.  If an approach is going to be brutally penal it should at least be right in front of you.  On a destination course that is.

Trails was built for tourists.  That entire place exists to serve guys flying in to play.  I have to assume that course has far more first time players than the national average.  That being the case I feel that hole has no business being on that course. 

Just a noob here with a thimble full of knowledge and five gallons of interest.  Be gentle.   

[John Kavanaugh]

Trails was built for tourists.  That entire place exists to serve guys flying in to play.  I have to assume that course has far more first time players than the national average.  That being the case I feel that hole has no business being on that course. 

I don't believe it was built for tourists.  Tell me how the hole ruined your round cause I don't get it from your post.

[Jon Nolan]

Trails was built for tourists.  That entire place exists to serve guys flying in to play.  I have to assume that course has far more first time players than the national average.  That being the case I feel that hole has no business being on that course. 

I don't believe it was built for tourists.  Tell me how the hole ruined your round cause I don't get it from your post.

I don't mean to suggest it was built for tourists as an explicit design goal.  But clearly the resort would not exist without travelers.  It is, I believe, a major consideration.

I was right with a blind, uphill shot over bunkers to a narrow green.  I was roughly a 20 index at the time.  You can imagine... 

I felt, and I'm posting here in the spirit of being convinced otherwise so please convince me, I was being presented with a very tough shot with no visual indicators of what was in front of me.  Distance control was a challenge due to the elevation change and the shallowness of the green.  I had bunkers in front of me.  I had no idea of the areas behind and left of the green beyond what I could see from 200 yards away.  Short (and somewhat left from my position) was no bargain.  That I was in a crap position was my fault but I was still in the fairway of a short par-4 and I felt completely snookered. 

My intention here is not to beat up on any one hole but that one sticks in my mind.  I really disliked it.  I'm going back again this year and playing that course for a second time.  Perhaps I'll put my tee shot on the left side of the fairway, make my par and grow to love it.  But right now... no love.  I don't mind tough shots.  In fact I relish them.  But I need to have some sort of idea of what's on offer.

[Tim Bert]

Jon -

Please take this as an opinion and not a criticism.  If you are a 20 handicap then you've got no business letting one hole "ruin" your round.  As someone that has ranged between a 10-15 for several years, I've come to expect some blow up holes from time to time.  I've also learned to love very challenging holes that present difficult problems to me.

I've played the hole 4 times.  I've been fortunate to par it 3 times in 3 very different ways.  Every time I've played, it has been in moderate to strong "helping" wind, which I think probably makes that green even harder to hold.

I think the hole is great.  One of these days there's a blow-up in my future there.  I've heard too many stories from many good golfers.  I'm probably fortunate in that I had my good scores, so when I start hacking away I can't call the hole unfair since I know what I've accomplished there.

It's all right in front of you from the tee.  It might disappear if you hit it in the wrong place, but you've had a chance up on the hill to take a good look at what faces you.

If you are in the valley and you don't have the game of a scratch golfer, then try some things you wouldn't normally try.  Bump it to the front.  Pitch it over the green to the left side.  Putt it up the hill.  Get creative.  Try to play the hole for a bogey instead of getting the ball close to the pin from an impossible spot.  You might just surprise yourself with a one-putt par if you set yourself up correctly.

Give it another chance on your next trip out.  It's better than many of the other holes on the course. 

[Jon Nolan]

Tim,

Thanks.  That's the sort of feedback I'm looking for.  I'm wide open to be convinced otherwise.

I'm a 15 now and would likely manage the hole better these days.  But stuck with me are the negatives I took with me as I had walked off to #15 tee that day.  As mentioned, #6 on PB had the same feel but in that case I was able to see past myself and acknowledge the hole.

I'm sorry this turned out to be about that one hole.  I would still like to hear in a more general sense if 'resort' courses should have some different design considerations.  Should the course be more 'up front' with less of a premium on local knowledge?

[Tim Bert]

I'm sorry this turned out to be about that one hole.  I would still like to hear in a more general sense if 'resort' courses should have some different design considerations.  Should the course be more 'up front' with less of a premium on local knowledge?

I don't think there's a problem with the hole being at that resort.  I think explicitly avoiding this kind of stuff leads to the "dumbing down" effect that many people talk about here.  Many on this site would already argue that much of Bandon is tailored too much to resort play.  I'm not in that camp either.  I think it is just about right.

If the entire course were full of this kind of stuff, then I might agree with you.  The fact is that this one is the exception.  There are plenty of caddies available; they are full of local knowledge for those that have never played the course.  Even without a caddie, it only takes once (or less if you are really paying attention on the tee) to realize that you dont want to miss right.  I realize that players of my skill level and yours can't always control where they miss even if they realize the problem - such is golf!

If this were a resort catering to vacationers who might want to play a round of golf, then it might be too severe.  This is a golf destination.  I'd be disappointed if there wasn't some really cool stuff like this going on out there.

[Jon Nolan]

Some good points Tim.  Thanks.

[Ken Moum]

I'm inclined to mostly agree with you. I will ignore Bandon, because I haven't played it, and it has a very different goal than the typical CCFAD.

My agreement is that when I play a course that's clearly designed to attract people to play one time, one vacation, with minimal repeat play, I find total blindness a tiny bit frustrating.

I do not think such courses shouhld be totally dumbed down, nor should they be "right there in front of you." I just like a clue about the prudent play.

The result of too much quirk, blindness and deception is that the average visitor can't negotiate the course in a reasonable amount of time or with a reasonable number of lost balls.

I'd rather play a 3.5-hour round on a simple-minded course than a 5.5-hour round on a thoughtful one.

Of course, my favorite is a nice pace on an interesting course. That, I'm afraid is becoming difficult in the world of vacation golf.

Ken

[Tim Bert]

Ken - I know you specifically point out that you aren't referring to Bandon.  I would just point out for anyone reading this thread (that hasn't been there) that Bandon Trails #14 is not totally blind.  It's all right there in front of you on the tee.  Only if you hit your tee shot to the right and don't pay attention to what's in front of you on your walk down from the ridge is the hole completely blind.

[Kalen Braley]

Jon,

Based on the packed tee shots even with the high prices at Bandon, I'd say this is the only criteria that need be used to measure if Keiser knows his audience or not.  If people want plain, ordinary, vanilla "fair" golf they can stay home and play thier local muni.

On a side note, there was a massive thread about this very hole a few months back. 

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32149.0.html

[Adam Clayman]

Re #6 @ pb from the teeing ground the whole hole is visible. Does being a first time visitor abdicate awareness?  Also, this feeling you have, assuming it's an uneasiness, is part of the sport; IMHO

[Jon Nolan]

kmoum, thanks for a bit of support.  I figured I might be going against the grain on this one.   

My "right there in front of you" comment might be a bit strong but on an extremely penal hole it's near enough the truth.  For me anyway. 

Tim/Adam.  I agree both holes are visible from the tee.  Perhaps I'm geometrically challenged but it's difficult for me to sort that all out from a blind spot a couple of hundred yards closer and perhaps quite a few degrees off the desired line.  A few rounds under the belt and the gestalt of the hole ( ) starts to become clear. 

Kalen, thanks for the link.  I hadn't seen that thread.  Clearly the hole generates some strong opinions.

I agree with those of you who suggest Bandon has a different sort of demographic (for lack of a better term.)  A hole which wouldn't work at some golf resorts could work just fine there.  Plus there are probably a lot more return visitors there than at, say, Wailea.  It's a good point and is compelling me to rethink a little, thanks.

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