[Craig Sweet]

I think a more beneficial idea would be offering reduced priced memberships to some "shrinks" with the condition that they have to volunteer X number of days a month to "on the course" mental health consoling.

Can you imagine...after a bad hole you can have a few minutes with a sports psychologist....

[Sean_A]

I don't know, with the right people the plan could work.  Though I must admit that most golfers I know aren't really interested in improving their game much or they would already be taking steps to do so.  I know very few golfers who receive a regular lesson and practice with regularity.  Even these guys tend to increase the routine when important events are in the pipeline and practically drop the routine in winter. 

As one who has never taken a lesson, but have watched many, many others try to get on after lessons, I never felt the need.  As Rich more or less states, I accept my level of play for what is and try to enjoy my golf as best I can under those circumstances.  While it is true that I am happier if I play well, I am not convinced that playing consistently better will make me happier because there is always the next level to be reached.  I know this is a cop out to a certain extent, but it is afterall only a game.  So much time and money can be spent on this endeavor, I figure I spend enough as it is what with rising green fees and the cost of travel. 

One thing does amaze me is how folks can get upset for playing poorly.  Some guys can literally ruin a day for themselves over a handful of bad shots -  these are the folks that I believe Peter's Plan could work for.  However, most of these guys come to realize the reality and join the fold of accepting a good game here and there, the company of friends and the lovely surrounds as enough reason to tee it up.  All that said - I was in favour of not hiring a pro at my old club when the position was vacant.  Folks can get a lesson anywhere and I don't need a qualified guy to sell me equipment and sweeties.  The profession would be better off with less qualified pros which would make them more in demand.  As it is, the field is swamped with teaching pros. 

Ciao   

[jeffwarne]

One thing does amaze me is how folks can get upset for playing poorly.  Some guys can literally ruin a day for themselves over a handful of bad shots -  these are the folks that I believe Peter's Plan could work for.  However, most of these guys come to realize the reality and join the fold of accepting a good game here and there, the company of friends and the lovely surrounds as enough reason to tee it up.  All that said - I was in favour of not hiring a pro at my old club when the position was vacant.  Folks can get a lesson anywhere and I don't need a qualified guy to sell me equipment and sweeties.  The profession would be better off with less qualified pros which would make them more in demand.  As it is, the field is swamped with teaching pros. 

Ciao   

 Sean,
The guys who ruin the day for themselves (and others) over a few bad shots ARE PRECISELY THE ONES who would not benefit from such a program. Their issues go way beyond bad habits and swing flaws, and would continue to be miserable-as well as drive the pros batty.

Such individuals are the reason I am very careful with my time and employ a full stable of hungry assistants. It only takes 5-15 of them at a club to fill your book (God knows if it were free they'd be there)with miserable people, at the expense of the rest of the good people at the club who might actually benefit from such a program.
No QUALIFIED, GOOD teacher would stick around for a steady diet of that, particularly on just a salary.

[Sean_A]

One thing does amaze me is how folks can get upset for playing poorly.  Some guys can literally ruin a day for themselves over a handful of bad shots -  these are the folks that I believe Peter's Plan could work for.  However, most of these guys come to realize the reality and join the fold of accepting a good game here and there, the company of friends and the lovely surrounds as enough reason to tee it up.  All that said - I was in favour of not hiring a pro at my old club when the position was vacant.  Folks can get a lesson anywhere and I don't need a qualified guy to sell me equipment and sweeties.  The profession would be better off with less qualified pros which would make them more in demand.  As it is, the field is swamped with teaching pros. 

Ciao   

 Sean,
The guys who ruin the day for themselves (and others) over a few bad shots ARE PRECISELY THE ONES who would not benefit from such a program. Their issues go way beyond bad habits and swing flaws, and would continue to be miserable-as well as drive the pros batty.

Such individuals are the reason I am very careful with my time and employ a full stable of hungry assistants. It only takes 5-15 of them at a club to fill your book (God knows if it were free they'd be there)with miserable people, at the expense of the rest of the good people at the club who might actually benefit from such a program.
No QUALIFIED, GOOD teacher would stick around for a steady diet of that, particularly on just a salary.

Jeff

Perhaps you are right.  And perhaps its time I took a lesson.  In recent weeks I did find out that the game can still be enjoyable despite hitting I don't know how many right field shots that all who see say are not shanks, but I gotta say the results sure looks the same!  Its the oddest feeling because I never went through anything like this even when first learning the game.  In any case, despite hitting probably 35 of these dreadful things in the past 6 games, I have still enjoyed myself.  I can hear the pro now, "Son, I don't know what yer up to, but I suggest not playing to that uncomfortable range which brings on thoughts of the shanks - that'll be $50 please."  Get yer invoices ready, you may get some business on the Gower.

Ciao

[RJ_Daley]

Geez Will, cut it out, you're making me blush... 

Peter, in reading more threads, and the comments of the likes of Will and Jeff and Racetrack, one can't ignore their well experienced advise on key issues.  I now think your ideas still have a great basic merit, but logistics and realities will require some continued brainstorming to try and blend the idealism of your initiative with the known realities already known by our pros of club member group psychology, behavior or expectations as they relate to their pros.  I do think that there must be a happy medium where the culture and joy of golf within the membership can be proselytized by the club "teachers" from card and pencil mentality that defeats the members who are on the fence of frustration and instead fosters their long term commitment to the game as a lifestyle rather than a personal competition they can never win.  I was turned on by a GCAer to Shoemaker and he does seem to get well into much of this frustration factor, and what makes the game more lifetime enjoyable rather than lifetime frustratable.  I know the one book I have of Shoemaker's has helped me sort things out better.  That leads to the issue that I imagine might be important, that all the teaching staff in whatever system you devise, all have the same basic teaching and golf philosophy, so as not to confuse the members who change from one staff guy to the next. 

The technicalities of lesson time, how that is delivered, in group or individual settings, and the psychological atmosphere where the pro-member relationship takes place is still perhaps dependent on the characteristics of the golf club as a collective set of values and fiscal capabilities and facilities.

[Rich Goodale]

Oops!

[Rich Goodale]

).

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I'm envisaging a world where instead of either manning the counter or giving lessons, the pros are out in the "community:"  chatting on the putting green; offerring observations and advice on the short game area; loitering on the range with the intent of spotting flawas and answering qeustions; roving the course to see how players are actually playing.

I for one would be happy to pay a good salary through my dues if my pros were doing this rather than what they do know.  And, it might even help my fragile game.........

If you're pros aren't doing the above already, your club is already doing something wrong.
However, if you cut him off from the "cash cows" you describe, you better be prepared to make it a fat salary.

I must be the unluckiest golfer in the world, Jeff, as in the 5 private/semi-private clubs I belonged to in the US and the 4 I have belonged to in the UK I have never seen a pro anywhere but the shop, giving a lesson, playing with celebrities or in the bar/grillroom.  Very glad to hear that somewhere out there there are clubs who are "doing it right."

Rich

[jeffwarne]

).

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I'm envisaging a world where instead of either manning the counter or giving lessons, the pros are out in the "community:"  chatting on the putting green; offerring observations and advice on the short game area; loitering on the range with the intent of spotting flawas and answering qeustions; roving the course to see how players are actually playing.

I for one would be happy to pay a good salary through my dues if my pros were doing this rather than what they do know.  And, it might even help my fragile game.........

If you're pros aren't doing the above already, your club is already doing something wrong.
However, if you cut him off from the "cash cows" you describe, you better be prepared to make it a fat salary.

I must be the unluckiest golfer in the world, Jeff, as in the 5 private/semi-private clubs I belonged to in the US and the 4 I have belonged to in the UK I have never seen a pro anywhere but the shop, giving a lesson, playing with celebrities or in the bar/grillroom.  Very glad to hear that somewhere out there there are clubs who are "doing it right."

Rich

Rich,
That's disappointing.
Those pros (and clubs) are missing a lot of income (and job satisfaction) possibilities by not mixing on the practice tee, the golf course, and the putting green.

It's like the cocaine dealer-first line is free.

[George Pazin]

The best thing you could do is figure out a way to squeeze more time out of the day.

[JMEvensky]

Some semi-on point experiences.

I completely agree with jeffwarne that if your Head Pro and assistants aren't already walking the practice tee,handing out pointers/advice,there's a problem.I've always considered the Saturday morning "weaken your grip a little" as a loss-leader for teaching Pro's.The assumption being that the member will appreciate the tip and realize that a series of full lessons would be a good thing.

One problem might be the pecking order of your teaching assistants.At my place,the low man has charge of Junior Development.This means that part of his lesson income is derived from $10/hour clinics for kids just learning the game.It's a critical thing for the club to have available.However,the assistant could probably earn more giving private lessons.That said,somebody HAS to teach kids to play.

We continually run into the problem of Assistant A teaching different swing philosophies from Assistant B.As example,if A puts on a clinic for Ladies' Day and says to hit a certain shot a certain way,someone taking private lessons from B will suggest that B is the better teacher.These discussions are always fun.

Another issue we have is that one of our teaching pro's has developed some very good players.His reputation brings him members looking for lessons.While the other assistant is very good,sometimes the member feels as though he's settling for second best if the first assistant is booked.

From what very little I know of Sherwood,your membership issues are probably completely different.However,any/every club will have problems when you start dictating policies which affect a Pro's lesson income.

I think your idea is basically great.Anything you can do to make the game more enjoyable to play for your members is a good thing,IMO.I just think you should be prepared to write bigger checks than you're assuming so that everyone stays happy.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Peter,

From another perspective: learning the 'how' of a golf swing is easy when compared with learning the 'how' of playing the game.

Couple that with ever increasing difficulties and slope ratings and it's no wonder that players leave the game after seven years.

I think it's more practical, generally, to make courses more user friendly than it is to try and upgrade everyones' game.   

[George Pazin]

Couple that with ever increasing difficulties and slope ratings and it's no wonder that players leave the game after seven years.

I think I disagree with you, Jim. I think the biggest reason to leave the game is simply that it is so time consuming, especially to achieve any sort of proficiency. It's almost an impossible game to enjoy as an infrequent hobby, unless you spent a lot of time playing in your youth and have an ingrained serviceable swing.

I always said I was reluctant to start playing golf because I felt I couldn't afford it, either in money or time - and I really thought it was more the money than the time. I finally took the plunge - wish I would've done it a lot sooner - but much to my surprise, it was/is a heckuva lot easier to find the money than the time.

I wasn't being sarcastic earlier when I said more time. There are things a club could do, if so inclined, to help golfers find the time.

First among these would be to really enforce pace of play.

[jeffwarne]

Couple that with ever increasing difficulties and slope ratings and it's no wonder that players leave the game after seven years.

I think I disagree with you, Jim. I think the biggest reason to leave the game is simply that it is so time consuming, especially to achieve any sort of proficiency. It's almost an impossible game to enjoy as an infrequent hobby, unless you spent a lot of time playing in your youth and have an ingrained serviceable swing.

I always said I was reluctant to start playing golf because I felt I couldn't afford it, either in money or time - and I really thought it was more the money than the time. I finally took the plunge - wish I would've done it a lot sooner - but much to my surprise, it was/is a heckuva lot easier to find the money than the time.

I wasn't being sarcastic earlier when I said more time. There are things a club could do, if so inclined, to help golfers find the time.

First among these would be to really enforce pace of play.

George,
The pace would automatically be better if courses weren't so hard, and the holes so far apart.
Some of the modern courses just can't be played at a reasonable pace by a high handicapper (or almost anyone)who is hunting balls every hole.

Youn are right that golf is difficult unless learned at a young age or at a time when one can devote time to it.

The people who are "leaving the game" were never really in the game having been swept up in the Tiger Woods-golf is cool-NGF hype that introduced many to the game who have/are slowly leaving it, leaving a glut of new mediocre (and sadly good) courses to suffer until it completely shakes out.

[Chris Garrett]

Peter,

There have been a number of very good comments made within this thread.  Research done by the PGA of America, the National Golf Foundation and others suggests that the two main reasons that male golfers stop playing are 1) Lack of time and 2) Costs.  The same studies show that the biggest reason women leave the game is that they lack confidence in their skill level.

The idea of free lessons is partially already done through the PGA of America’s free lesson week.  If your facility already participates, what sort of reaction do you receive?  This one-day sample might provide you with a better idea of how your program would work. 

In my experience, the biggest single fault with commission based lessons is that instructors tend to “milk” the members/customers for a series of lessons.  This leads to slow, gradual fixes when many members/customers would benefit from one good, solid lesson.

The main challenge that you will face from salaried instructors is a decline in motivation for teaching.  I’d bet that with three instructors on staff, your facility already embodies a strong country club culture and zest to improve one’s game.  Otherwise, three instructors would not survive financially.

My thought is that a hybrid version of your plan might be the best option.  Growing the game is a vital part of any club and teaching pro’s agenda.  The best way to ensure the future of the game is to start them young, instead of waiting until they have graduated college and play in their first corporate outing.  Perhaps you could offer free lessons to juniors at your club (Anyone in high school or younger).  You might also offer free clinics to women members on their “league” days.  Keep in mind that women tend to view golf as a social experience rather than as a competitive experience.  Clinics offer a sort of safe haven for women to take lessons, when they might otherwise be uncomfortable and lack confidence in a one-on-one lesson setting.  As any General Manager, Club Manager, or pro worth their weight will tell you, win over the wives and you’ll be successful.

As has been mentioned, your entire staff needs to think of themselves as ambassadors for the club.  When they are not on the lesson tee or manning the counter in the golf shop, they should be shaking hands, striking up conversations, offering tips to members on the range, and putting their finger on the pulse of the club.

[Jim_Kennedy]

George,
As with many other pursuits in life, if you really want to do something you will make the time, or somehow find it. I used to play at 6:30 am and get in as many holes as time would allow before having to head to work. My wife thought I was nuts. 

As to proficiency, yes, it doesn't happen overnight, but you also don't need to labor endlessly to become OK. Half the reason some players aren't happy with their game is because they expect too much of themselves and cannot accept  the limitations of their talent.   

[Adam Clayman]

On my recent jaunt to Lincoln, I was privileged to play at a little (and I  mean little) private 18 hole course called The Knolls. It featured holes ranging from 85 yards to 210. Had two swimming pools and a public restaurant. The owner, a hard working man named George, made the comment that business was booming. Getting more new members every year. His understanding is, that not many families appreciate, or are able to spend, $1500 on a week's family vacation, when they can join The Knolls and vacation all summer long for the same dough.
 

[Will E]

Here's what I don't get.
It's pretty much a fact that the current system of traditional instruction, tips, and fixes, doesn't work. More information doesn't produce lower handicaps.
Golfers pretty much take up the game, improve for about 5 or so years, spend the next 30 or so years around the same level, then have a major health event, and then die.
If you agree with that, and most everyone at some level knows this to be; why then would we want to continue (or in this case increase) this path and then expect a different result?
Most golf pros I know answer, "well what else is there", or "this is all I know".
I'd work on finding out why your members play golf. What is it about chasing a ball around a park with sticks that they like?
Jeff and I have been lucky enough to be around some incredible coaches that have had extraordinary results. What I've noticed is that these pros create an environment where the student is active in the learning process and actually "teaches" themselves. Self discovery produces a much more lasting result than a swing thought which typically last a few rounds at best.
As a guy who makes his living helping golfers I can tell you it's much more fun to "teach" this way, rather than taking the old approach that I've got to fix my students, today I'm excited about what I might learn from my students.
So in short, I'm suggesting you change the context, do this and the content will follow.
Jim's right, if you really want to do something you will make the time.

[John Burzynski]

Peter:

I agree with the one posting above about not giving the lessons for free...how about a greatly reduced price, maybe $10-$15 and hour/lesson or something along those lines.  Freeis nice, but if you get the lesson for free you will have people that will take advantage of the situation, or people won't practice as they need to because they don't have any personal investment in the lessons.   

The biggest obstacle to me for taking lessons is that the minimum charge around here is $50 an hour, for the most 'unqualified' of teachers, and typically it is $75 an hour or slightly more.  Not sure it takes a lot of qualification to teach the basics like grip and stance, but to fine tune swings takes a bit more knowledge and effort. 

There are a lot of good teachers out there on the low end of the charge scale, but that is still too much dough for me, and you sometimes have to try a couple of teachers before you find one you are comfortable with.  $50 will pay for a lot of green fees for me...especially when I am putting my oldest through college and every penny counts.

Nice that you are thinking out of the box at your club.  Too many course managers nowdays are not creative in their thinking!

[John Kavanaugh]

I doubt that a single member at the club Peter is talking about spends less than $20,000 a year on golf.  These lessons are no more free than the tees I bet they give away...the truth is...like the tees these lessons will be used more frequently because people just love "free" stuff.

I thnk anything that gets people taking more lessons is a great thing.  My 12 year old took a private lesson last night, as opposed to junior group wack fests, and we both decided after playing that yesterday may be the single moment that will put him on his way to a lifetime of loving the game.  I played the tippity tips and he played the fronty fronts and we both parred the number 1 and 3 handicap holes on a world class tough course.  I know this sounds alien to you guys but playing better is more fun and led to both of us enjoying each others company more.

[Will E]

John B,
What would make a lesson worth $200 an hour to you?
What kind of value would you have to get to want to do it again as soon as you could?
John K,
I'm all about results.
good shot/bad shot, right way/wrong way, change this teaching just doesn't work.
What works? You do.
For more than that you'll have to come to Ann Arbor and pay me.
If you don't think I've created any value then I won't expect to be paid.

[John Burzynski]

John B,
What would make a lesson worth $200 an hour to you?
What kind of value would you have to get to want to do it again as soon as you could?
John K,
I'm all about results.
good shot/bad shot, right way/wrong way, change this teaching just doesn't work.
What works? You do.
For more than that you'll have to come to Ann Arbor and pay me.
If you don't think I've created any value then I won't expect to be paid.

Wellender:

I think that for $200, I would have to see a definitive and substantial (maybe 2-3 or more strokes) change in my scoring within a few weeks or months, after practicing what the instructor taught, of course.

Problem is, at least in my limited golf lesson experience, seldom does one session produce dramatically lower results, even for me (22.6 handicap).   I suspect that several lessons, combined with more frequent practice, would eventually help my game into the 80's consistently, but I find that I make slow and steady progress each year for the most part on my own (shave a stroke or two off my handicap each year).  At several lessons, we are talking $200 x maybe 3 or 4 lessons minimum in a year or two period, so is the $800 cost of a package of lessons worth the shaving of a few strokes to most people?  Is this a reasonable expense in lessons to request of the average golfer who maybe plays 10-20 times a year (or for that matter the more frequent golfer like me)? 

I just don't see any instructor having that 'magic bullet' that takes my game from consistent scores in the 90's with an occasional high 80 score once or twice a year, down to a low to mid 80's consistent score.  Maybe I am wrong there on that point. 

Golf lessons are expensive, and I feel that to really work, most instructors will tell you that you need a 'package deal' of several lessons over a season's time.  Just too salty for me at this point.

[George Pazin]

George,
As with many other pursuits in life, if you really want to do something you will make the time, or somehow find it.   

Jim's right, if you really want to do something you will make the time.

I can't argue with this at all. I'll simply point out that the question was why aren't golfers getting better. It sounds like it simply isn't a high enough priority for 99% of all golfers.

[Jim_Kennedy]

George,
Priorities aside, I think much of the answer is in what I said earlier, no one is making courses easier to play.

[Jim_Kennedy]

George,
.......and, as seen in John B's post, they'd rather spend their hard earned cash playing (or buying that new 'wonder' club) than they would on improving. 

When someone (the generic someone) says they want to get better but won't spend the time, the cash, or a combination of the two on doing so, then they don't really want to improve, do they.

[George Pazin]

When someone (the generic someone) says they want to get better but won't spend the time, the cash, or a combination of the two on doing so, then they don't really want to improve, do they.

Nope.

I don't think making the course easier even really helps that much, unless you are talking about removing hazards or other things that take up time - heavy rough or trees causing long ball searches, water causing multiple shots, etc.

I guess all I'm really saying is I don't think a few free lessons are going to help that much, either. For me, personally, I know what I do right and wrong, I just need to practice and play. That requires time that I'm not willing to sacrifice other things to create.

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