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John Sheehan

Sugarloaf - as good as it looks?
« on: May 16, 2008, 02:32:24 AM »
If this topic has been discussed before, please steer me to the thread.  I tried the 'site search' but could find nothing.

I've watched the pros play this course on the tube; but I've never played it myself.  In the past, when it was playing firm and fast, this looked like a really interesting design, with a drivable par 4 (#13), some dramatic elevation changes, interesting (and seemingly strategic) bunker placement. 

Anyone played it?  What did you think?

Thanks,
John

Phil_the_Author

Re: Sugarloaf - as good as it looks?
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2008, 02:38:36 AM »
I think Norman (or whoever works for him) got all they could out of the routing. I think much of the bunkering lacks character and some are superfluous and needs eliminating.

There are some very good holes, though none that I would categorize as great.

John Sheehan

Re: Sugarloaf - as good as it looks?
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2008, 02:51:44 AM »
I think much of the bunkering lacks character and some are superfluous and needs eliminating.

Philip,
Thanks for your take.  Just curious, in what way are some of the bunkers "superfluous?"  They don't fit in with the strategy of a hole, or don't support the strategy?  Do you have any specific examples?
Thanks,
John

Phil_the_Author

Re: Sugarloaf - as good as it looks?
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2008, 03:09:51 AM »
There are some fairway bunkers that serve no purpose other than to punish the poorer player as they are short and out of any line of play other than a missed shot. A good example of this is found on #10, the par-five. It is a good hole that is lessened because of this.

There are a number of dramatic-looking large greenside bunkers that are great visually, especially on television, but due to the large size of the greens they are guarding, have minimal impact on shot values into the green and don't dictate, as they should, a proper line of play off the tee.

John Sheehan

Re: Sugarloaf - as good as it looks?
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2008, 03:40:11 AM »
Philip,
Thanks.  I come from a strategic school bias myself, so I understand your analysis. 

Not having played the course myself, I wonder:  I spoke with an architect recently about some upcoming plans he has.  We discussed inserting cross bunkers at a very close distance off the tee.  Our reasoning was that golfers get a big thrill (and rightfully so) out of driving a cross- bunker; yet most courses don't really take the short hitter into consideration on the strategic design of cross-bunkers. To carry most of them is something that is simply out of their reach. Our thinking was that even though those bunkers would not come into play for the strong player, it was a chance to give the short-hitter a shot, at least fleetingly, at glory. Do you think it possible that might be what Norman (or an associate) had in mind with any of those fairway bunkers you referenced?

SB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sugarloaf - as good as it looks?
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2008, 09:15:59 AM »
So does that mean every bunker on every course has to be there for a strategic purpose and only for good players?  Greenside bunkers have to have a significant impact on shot values and determine the line of play?

If that were the case, you would probably need to fill in around 100 bunkers at NGLA. 

I personally like the bunkering.  Most have a unique lip that looks good to my eye.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sugarloaf - as good as it looks?
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2008, 10:10:42 AM »
This is one broad-shouldered golf course with plenty of elevation change.  Relatively demanding off the tee as landing areas are generally pinched down by bunkering.  Visually, this course is attractive in person as well and fun to play - from the correct tees.  Every time I turned around the tournament tees seemed 75 yard behind.  These guys are so good.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sugarloaf - as good as it looks?
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2008, 10:21:56 AM »
I like Sugarloaf.

Even the nutty 18th. Norman designed it originally to be a par 4 with the green across the lake where the big scoreboard is now. The PGA wanted a par 5 finisher, so they moved the tees back and relocated the green to its current position.

The course is very hilly. You can get in big trouble pretty easily. The MacMansions are an eyesore. Too many forced carries perhaps. But I thought Norman did a good job with the design. I've been surprised it hasn't gotten more attention locally as a course people want to play.

Bob
« Last Edit: May 16, 2008, 10:29:39 AM by BCrosby »

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sugarloaf - as good as it looks?
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2008, 10:44:48 AM »
I played there once and caddied for my old college roomate in the Bellsouth Event a few years ago. 

I liked many of the holes although the layout is all over hell and back and virtually unwalkable--particularly carrying a big ass tour bag! 

#18 is terrible but I liked #8, #9, #12, #13 quite a bit.

It is also not very spectator friendly and I miss the old Atlanta CC as the host site for the tournament.

Assuming you can ignore the fact that this a real estate deal laid out to maximize golf course lots and therefore not real high on my list, it does have some very good individual holes. 

In my view it is sad that high end real estate developments with a focus on mega homes and prstine golf course views are the focus instead of the flow/architecture of the course itself.  (This is my same "complaint" with The River Club Norman did down the street although Sugarloaf at least has some really strong holes and the River Club does not).

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sugarloaf - as good as it looks?
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2008, 10:47:49 AM »

Chris,
Is your old room mate still on the tour?  Or is it someone I know that can't break 85? ;D


"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sugarloaf - as good as it looks?
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2008, 11:06:35 AM »
The latter ;D

John Sheehan

Re: Sugarloaf - as good as it looks?
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2008, 02:44:34 AM »
So does that mean every bunker on every course has to be there for a strategic purpose and only for good players?  Greenside bunkers have to have a significant impact on shot values and determine the line of play?

If that were the case, you would probably need to fill in around 100 bunkers at NGLA. 

SBusch,
I believe your question was probably directed at Philip; but I'd like to give it a try.  This is a good question. 

In most strategic designs I have played, the bunkers do serve the purpose that Philip proposed.  The fairway bunkers suggest the aggressive risk/reward route to the preferred angle, or they shorten the approach shot, or some other reward.  Bunkers are not placed to penalize the poor player, but to entice the good player (Line of Charm and all that).

The placement of greenside bunkers reside in harmony with that approach, sort of a "Greenside Bunker Placement Meld" (to partially steal a phrase made popular by TE Paul regarding maintenance).  Some of the more interesting strategic designs have few or no bunkers that would be considered "penal," i.e., they are not there to penalize a wayward shot from a poor or weak player, but rather to entice the good/strong player to take an aggressive line.  They are not out of the preferred line of play. 

But as you note, many bunkers on some of the grand courses, like NGLA or TOC, would be filled in if that were the hard and fast rule: only place bunkers for the strong player. 

I think many disciples of the strategic school sometimes forget that interpreting a designer's placement of bunkers is a tricky business. 

The result is that they often fail to see that some bunkers that may indeed be penal for one player, are not penal for another.  A good example are the cross- or fairway bunkers short on some long par 4's.  The good player doesn't even notice these.  But the weaker or shorter hitter might have to carefully consider these in his/her layup shot.  For them, they are (or can be) strategic bunkers, if they reside on the preferred approach line.

In other cases, as I stated in my previous post, a cross-bunker short, which may be irrelevant to the stong player, can play a significant part in the strategic design for the short hitter. 

Also, contours, hollows, cants and ridges can be the primary strategic element, the overriding consideration on a green complex.  Even in strategic design, a good solid stategic design, bunkers can be penal in nature.  I think this is most often true greenside.  While a classic strategic par four might have fairway bunker right, greenside bunker left.  There are strategic designs that have both fairway AND greenside bunkers on one side only.  In a solid stategic design the orientation of the green and the corresponding contours can indicate a welcoming line of play moreso than the placement of the bunkers. 

Number 2 at Metropolitan in Oakland is a good example of this.  While the fairway bunkers are center and left, the greenside bunker is also left.  At first glance, some might consider this a violation of stategic design principles.  After all, in the classic example, if fairway bunkers are left,  that side of the green should allegedly be open to reward the risky/aggressive line of play.  But the green truly dictates the stategy. And the green is canted (primarily) from right/high to left/low, thereby inviting an approach from the left side of the fairway.  My guess is that the greenside left bunker is there to reinforce that strategy.  The cant of the green will take all but the most perfectly struck fade from the right side of the fairway and move it towards that left greenside bunker.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sugarloaf - as good as it looks?
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2008, 05:29:47 PM »
Not necessarily Sugarloaf but form other Norman works a great deal of the bunkering leaves you wondering.... Why?

Decorative windowdressing comes to mind.

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