[Chris Cupit]

I too have always wondered about the holes around the lake. If they would have fit the rest of the course this could be a top 5 layout. The membership is great and they are all golf nuts.


Chris are u playing next weekend? Have you talked to Boyd lately?


Lawrence

I am headed up despite playing like a total dog right now.  Are you? 

Boyd and Jamie and my wife and I were scheduled for the hit and giggle tournament a couple of weeks ago but got rained out.  I had convinced Boyd to come out of hibernation which is a good thing!  I try and call him each month--he's the best and put up with my antics for far too long!

[Chris Cupit]

BCrosby,

#7 is my least favorite hole visually by far.  It is basically the dam for the lake and I have always hated how the entire right side of the hole is so poorly defined.  The only real thing to aim for off the tee is a sliver of cart path in between some silly looking mounds on the right of the fairway.

Also, the cross ties look really out of place--the stone that is naturally occuring and used throughout the course would have made more sense but I guess Pete Dye insisted on that "trademark" cross tie look.

I do like the other lake holes--#8 , #9 , #15 and to a lesser extent #16

As an aside, both lakes are man made (22 acres and 7 acres) and the big lake sprung a leak a few years ago--it was drained and they installed a liner--thank you Mr. Lupton!

Jack and Kyle

I am ready for a re-match whether it's in Houston, Ooltewah or Chicago--Kyle we have our d.d. in Jack so I am ready to go!

Matt

Glad you had a good time.  It has been a great retreat for me over the years.  If I can get away and you are in the area give me a shout.  (I live in Atlanta).

The entrance is still across from Chattanooga Propane although the tank is plain white now--they took off the writing for some reason.  FWIW when we hosted the US Amateur in 1991 Mr. Lupton did put up a small entrance sign--about 2' x 3' and tucked back off the road!

Michael,

We are thrilled and fortunate to have David Stone.  How many courses can be so fortunate to have the super from prior to opening until the present as their one and only person in charge of the course?  He was a great "steal" from Holston Hills.  As Pete Dye said in one of his books--"David Stone knows grass".


 

[Matt Varney]

Chris,

Call me (865) 300-9660 if you are ever looking for someone to play with you at The Honors.  I live in Knoxville so if you leave Atlanta and I leave about 20 minutes later we would arrive at about the same time at the gate.  The Honors is the best golf experience I have ever had playing it trumps Pebble because of the membership and the feel of the place.

I agree #7 could be tweaked on the design.  It just takes more money to make changes we are currently working with Pete & P.B. on a new mountain course in Tennessee.  He was telling us about rework at TPC, Oak Tree he is always tinkering on his designs if asked to make design adjustments and improvements.

MDV

[Chris Cupit]

Chris,

Call me (865) 300-9660 if you are ever looking for someone to play with you at The Honors.  I live in Knoxville so if you leave Atlanta and I leave about 20 minutes later we would arrive at about the same time at the gate.  The Honors is the best golf experience I have ever had playing it trumps Pebble because of the membership and the feel of the place.

I agree #7 could be tweaked on the design.  It just takes more money to make changes we are currently working with Pete & P.B. on a new mountain course in Tennessee.  He was telling us about rework at TPC, Oak Tree he is always tinkering on his designs if asked to make design adjustments and improvements.

MDV

Given what is there now, what would you suggest to change up #7?  Also, check your IM--I sent you my contact info.

[Matt Varney]

Chris,

I hit driver and played a little carving draw down the leftside of the fairway.  Your comment that the soil is the dam for the lake makes me think now.  I would need to look at the topo on the right fairway and slope down by the cart path but the fairway is really level.  My creative side would say start cutting away on that level fairway and make it really unique and split it up with some rocks and native grasses and even a few mature 30'-40' specimen trees planted among this natural area dividing the fairway into two parts.

The left side would require a very straight drive but a shorter approach that is open into a longer green and the right side fairway would sit lower and be open to catch the fade tee ball but, the approach shot would be much longer and uphill a distance controlled shot with an angle coming into a crowned narrower green complex that has more bunkering and water on the left and just behind the green.

You do that and #7 would be very memorable and nobody would ever say the don't like #7.

[Lawrence Largent]

I was gonna come down but I have the Jess Sweester Invitational at Biltmore Forest the same weekend.  I'm glad you had Boyd at least committing to come out and play thats saying alot from what I've heard. I'm sure you will do just find Nixon Costner is coming down for the Lupton Steve J. said its a great event. If I ever wear out my welcome over at Biltmore I'll for sure make it down The Honors Course is a great spot!

Lawrence

[Tim Bert]

I thought #7 was the Dye equivalent of #5 at Whistling Straits.  I've heard the story on #5 at WS plenty of times, so I know why he did it, but it doesn't make it fit with the rest of the course any better.

As I stated earlier in this thread #7 and #15 are probably my least favorite par 4s at this great course.  #15 just didn't suit my eye for whatever reason, but #7 doesn't really seem to fit with the rest of the course as others have mentioned.

Oh well, small complaint for a great course. 

For those of you that have had the pleasure of playing both The Honors and Holston Hills, how do these two Tennessee greats stack up against one another?  How would you divide ten rounds between the two?

I'm stuck here with Bogey in the wasteland of golf that is Middle Tennessee.  You guys in the Eastern part of the state are very fortunate!

[Matt Varney]

10 rounds to play

The Honors (9) and Holston Hills (1)

They are both great courses in my eyes The Honors is just one of best I have ever played in my life hands down.  I played Holston Hills back 5 years ago and it has a great design it just doesn't make me jump like The Honors.  I get calls all the time to cut away and play Holston Hills and I pass to play on the weekends.  They are 2 totally different courses one is classic Ross with back to back par 5's to close and the other is Dye at his best and totally in touch with nature coutesy of David Stone and a membership that wants unique pure golf.

This is exactly why we called on Pete & P.B. Dye to design our new course in the mountains.  We worked with Bob Cupp on Rarity Pointe and we are working Lee Trevino and Jerry Lemons on Rarity Club.  We also will be adding another Pete & P.B Dye course at Rarity Rivers.

[Tim Bert]

10 rounds to play

The Honors (9) and Holston Hills (1)

They are both great courses in my eyes The Honors is just one of best I have ever played in my life hands down.  I played Holston Hills back 5 years ago and it has a great design it just doesn't make me jump like The Honors.  I get calls all the time to cut away and play Holston Hills and I pass to play on the weekends.  They are 2 totally different courses one is classic Ross with back to back par 5's to close and the other is Dye at his best and totally in touch with nature coutesy of David Stone and a membership that wants unique pure golf.

This is exactly why we called on Pete & P.B. Dye to design our new course in the mountains.  We worked with Bob Cupp on Rarity Pointe and we are working Lee Trevino and Jerry Lemons on Rarity Club.  We also will be adding another Pete & P.B Dye course at Rarity Rivers.

Thanks Matt.  That's a pretty strong statement!  I've heard that Holston represents classic Ross at its finest, and I've even heard one or two bold souls opine that it compares favorably to Pinehurst #2.

Any other takers on the ten round split?

[Matt Varney]

Tim,

It is a classic Ross design I would not rank it with Seminole or Pinehurst #2.  Ryan Blair the super does an amazing job maintaining firm and fast playing conditions.  It was created way back in the day as a sister course to Cherokee Country Club.  After the course was completed financial times got tough and it never was tampered with by the decreasing membership all the bunkers and greens maintained their natural contours.  You should play it and then rate it based on what you think it has some great routing and nice use of the land forms.

If it was as good as Pinehurst or Seminole it would trump The Honors its not in the same league it is good but different.  I know lots of good golfers in Knoxville that play out of Fox Den, Cherokee or Willow Creek and they could join or play Holston Hills and they don't but they play The Honors everytime they get an invitation from a member.
 

[Lawrence Largent]

I would have to say 7 Holston to 3 Honors if Holston had the financial resources that the Honors did it wouldn't even be up for dicussion. Holston is the finest course I've played visually from the tee. There is no an equal on how the hole looks, bunker presentation, and green complexes visually from the tee. Now this is my own opinion and I'm sure some will disagree.

Lawrence

[Tim Bert]

Wow.  Two opinions in and we've got 9-1 Honors and 7-3 Holston.  This could be interesting.

[Lawrence Largent]

To even mention Cherokee, Fox Den, or Willow Creek in the same sentence as Holston just dosen't make any sense to me.  I'm not sure if you are aware of this but Holston just may have the best Player membership in the state. A handful of which live on the west side of town and drive 30 minutes to play Holston.

Lawrence

[J_ Crisham]

Tim, The real question is where these courses would rank against The Jans! Where is Shivas when we need him!

[Matt Varney]

Just so you know the history on this David Stone was at Holston Hills when P.B. Dyue found him back in the early 80's when they were building The Honors.  Ryan Blair the supeintendent is damn good and he is focused on providing a very pure Ross designed golf course.

I like the natural feel of The Honors that is my personal preference over Holston Hills classic design.  I truly believe that if Holston Hills had been built in West Knoxville way back in the day it would be the best club on our side of town.  Holston is on the other side of Knoxville in an old neighborhood of classic homes and many just don't want to drive that far to play golf.

[Matt Varney]

Lawrence,

I am well aware of the player membership at Holston Hills.  I never said Fox Den, Cherokee and Willow Creek are better they just are on the side of town where the money flows.  You want me to tell you why I think it never gets its due....the back to back #17 and #18 par 5's are very unique but #18 is an uphill beast and it is killer walking the final hole to the green. 

The cape hole on #2 the 600 yard par 5 the split fairway are great and I personally love the collection of par 3's and par 4's and all the green complexes.  Ryan Blair does a great job on conditioning and the bunkers are amazing they look like a U.S. Open.  When they grow the bermuda rough up outside the fairway lines this place is a monster from the tips.

I would never say that Holston Hills is the superior course to The Honors.   It is good but it comes down to personal preference and I like the look and feel of The Honors.

[Keith Williams]

I played both during my years in Knoxville and, as indecisive as this sounds, would have to go with a 5-5 split.  Both courses offer great, but very different assets.

I would guess that after one play of each, most golfers would side with The Honors, it offers the aesthetics and drama that are easily identified from the start; but after repeated plays the subtlety of Holston would show through and I think the "10 rounds" comparison would begin to even out.

I agree that the 7th at The Honors sticks out like a sore thumb.  Routed along the dam and using the wooden bulkhead instead of native stone, it just doesn't fit (but is tough as nails).  I like the other holes around the lakes, especially 9 and 16 (try it from the way back tees).

IMO, Holston Hills would be even better if they could somehow restore the risk/reward to the tee shot on 7.  8 is one of my favorite "underrated" par threes around.

Keith.

[Mike_Young]

10 rounds to play

The Honors (9) and Holston Hills (1)

They are both great courses in my eyes The Honors is just one of best I have ever played in my life hands down.  I played Holston Hills back 5 years ago and it has a great design it just doesn't make me jump like The Honors.  I get calls all the time to cut away and play Holston Hills and I pass to play on the weekends.  They are 2 totally different courses one is classic Ross with back to back par 5's to close and the other is Dye at his best and totally in touch with nature coutesy of David Stone and a membership that wants unique pure golf.

This is exactly why we called on Pete & P.B. Dye to design our new course in the mountains.  We worked with Bob Cupp on Rarity Pointe and we are working Lee Trevino and Jerry Lemons on Rarity Club.  We also will be adding another Pete & P.B Dye course at Rarity Rivers.

Thanks Matt.  That's a pretty strong statement!  I've heard that Holston represents classic Ross at its finest, and I've even heard one or two bold souls opine that it compares favorably to Pinehurst #2.

Any other takers on the ten round split?

Tim,
To each his own.....I really enjoy Honors and agree as to David Stone.....BUT if I have to choose it will be HH 9 Honors 1.....that just says how much I like HH.  And a note Honors would be much better if they had a weight limit on their out of town members...it really affects the green conditions

[Mike Hendren]

Moreso than any course I've played,  The Honors is better than the sum of its individuals holes.  IMHO only the 12th is great with the 14th just missing.  No other course showcases indigenous nature better than The Honors, thanks in large part to David Stone.  Having played there three times, I find it less pretentious with each trip and a real testament to the beauty of my native state.  It deserves every bit of its rankings.

That said, I've got to second LL's 7-3 split favoring Holston Hills.  I'd likely record similar scores on both courses, but prefer to leak at half-stroke here and there (Ross at HH) rather than have a couple snatched away at a time  (Dye at HC).  Whether Holston is considered great or not, to me it is the epitome of what a golf course should be.  Besides I have some rather fond memories of shagging (i.e., dancing for you U.K. residents) to beach music in the ballroom during my legendary college frat career. 

Mike

[Lawrence Largent]

Keith,

I feel they have restored the risk reward to the 7th at Holston.  They added a new tee and so far this year the second shot is more in the 230 to 250 range. Most of the time the course is playing very firm and fast so the out of bounds just right of the green really comes into play.  The hole used to be a pretty given birdie with a good to great drive.  Now standing in the fairway you really have to favor the left side knowing any shot pushed or leaked right will more than likely end up out of bounds.

Lawrence

[Keith Williams]

That's good to hear, Lawrence.  I haven't seen the course in seven years (thinking that, I cannot believe it has been that long).  From the new tee, is a tee shot to the left side of the hole any more testing?  I don't think Ross ever envisioned that tee option being the no brainer it had become as technology advanced.

Keith.

[RBlair]

I just can not say enough about David and the Honors.  When I started working on golf courses in high school I was all over the map, then I went to see David knowing nothing about the place and was offered a job for the summer.  Under his direction I went on to get my Bachelor Degree in agronomy, and had the opportunity to work with one of his Assistants upon my graduation.  After a few years as an assistant myself I was fortunate to move on also to a head position, the Superintendent at Holston Hills.  When I look back it is hard for me to believe that David worked right here in the office I am sitting in now all those years ago.  The amount of guys that have worked with David and moved on to Superintendents positions is amazing. If you ever have the opportunity to play the Honors take full advantage by not only playing the course, but also by speaking with David about the course.

[Matt Varney]

Ryan,

You are very good at what you do and if David Stone taught you the ropes you got a great education and Holston Hills shows just how good you are as a superintendent.  Holston is a great course and you keep it in pristine condition firm and fast with great bunkering.

Matt

[herrstein]

The history of the 7th hole- it is the dam- includes a much narrower fairway that kicked balls into the lake, especially when the course was bermuda in its first year or two.
It looked a bit more natural then, although it was still the dam. The land went to the water's edge.
An earthquake on the eve of the 1986 Southern Amateur caused the 7th green to lose about 20% of its surface to the lake. When it was restored the following winter, the wall (masonry block veneered with RR ties ripped in half) was extended down the entire length of the fairway.
I came upon Pete Dye himself in boots with shovel standing in the crater left by the quake the next morning.

As to the 10th, the story about the fairway and Alice Dye is the same I have heard (my company did the excavation and blasting there). I too liked the original green. The new hole has a better skeleton, but the green is fairly benign. The 10th has never been one of the stronger holes, but it was one of the hardest. Now the lengthening has made many of the holes brutally tough from the back tees.

[michael j fay]

From 9-1 Honors to 9-1 Holston shows some pretty good preference of old over new or vice versa.

Essentially both courses are shining examples of their eras.

The Honors course is a much newer facility with much cleaner and frankly prettier surrounds. The golf is interesting, challenging and sound. Holston has a five era clubhouse in a modest section of Knoxville but the golf is interesting, challenging anf sound. As different as they are they both provide great entertainment for the serious golfer.

As one who prefers old courses (and obviously Ross courses) I would lean 7-3 in favor of Holston, but there is the matter of the fried chicken, banana pudding......

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