[Ken Moum]

Re. Sutton Bay, don't forget that the place was a very busy goose hunting operation for decades before it had a golf course. It also has a pheasant hunting preserve license.

I think there are a significant number of people who find the combination of hunting and golf very attractive.

Ken

[Matt Waterbury]

What about Cabot Links (at some point) ?

Or Sutton Bay?

Black Sand Golf Club?

Or even Cape Kidnappers?

Sutton Bay certainly meets to criteria. It and Kidnappers are the one's that came to mind.

Cabot Links certainly will not fit the criteria. Cape Breton golf is one of the last remaining hidden gems. Existing courses like Highland Links, Bell Bay, Dundee are decent in their own rights (Links is a top 100 course in the world). A wee bit south on mainland Nova Scotia you have Fox Harb'r, which is a neat place. Add Cabot Links and Faldo's new course at Louisbourg, and you've got a right regular golf mecca!

Cheerio,
Matt

[David Druzisky]

I think in all the properties identified here the question can get back to  Is it "worth' the effort to go there?

There needs to be a hook for it to work.  One or more aspects such as location, uniqueness, quality, celebrity and of course overall scale of the property are what is weighed in making that decission.  With that in mind, the lesser each of those (and others) aspects are the less likely it will work.  Also today, marketing plays a huge part since there are many options out there.  In few situations does the build it and they will come reasoning work anymore.

Bandon has several of those things going for it with scale being the only thing that is changing.  Others listed may have nice designs and a nice remote location, but is it a special location - say on the ocean.  Is it at least remote from a major metro area or remote from everything.

I would consider my course at Laughin Ranch a remote property since you really have to comitt to go there specifically as it is not on a prime route between two large cities.  As good as it is, I believe it would benefit from another quaity golf experience in the area so it gets put on more of a golf destination map. It is close to Vegas but most have allready travelled to Vegas and do not want to go on from there. (Heck, most dont have rental cars.)  People do go on to Mesquite from Vegas, but Mesquite benefits from scale with numerous courses to play as a destination.  Laughlin and Mesquite are pretty much the same distance from Vegas but Mesquite has developed more as a golfing mecca.  Laughlin Ranch is a superior golf course to anything in Mequite (I know some of you are passionate about Wolf Creek) but Mesquite has more courses that work together on PR and marketing.

It all gets back to some sort of value reasoning and is it Worth it. BTW todays economy is going to make it even tougher to survive remotely. 

[Phil McDade]

Machrihanish doesn't count because, first and foremost, its a club for the people of that community. 

Chris:

There are, by my count, about 40 buildings total in all of Machrihanish proper, and a few of those are hotels/taverns/the clubhouse. Now, of course, it's a stone's throw from Campbeltown, and I'm sure most of its "local" play is from there.

After a round at Machrihanish, I repaired to the clubhouse with a member who admitted, after a couple of pints, that his wife was a bit tired of Campbeltown and its isolation, and was wanting to move (back, apparently) to Glasgow. He, too, acknowledged he occasionally grew tired of the small town. But, he said, glancing out the clubhouse window to the wonderful links, "I'd have to give up this."

I think Marchrihanish, and even more so Machrie, are the definition of remote, one-trick ponies for Scottish golf.

[Bob Jenkins]

Sagebrush near Quilchena, BC will probably fit the bill but another new course, Tobiano, near Kamloops, is about an hour away. Sagebrush looks great from photos and I am hoping to get up there shortly. Expected to open in August I understand. Rod Whitten, Dick Zokol, design. www.sagebrushgolf.com

[Kevin Pallier]

Alice Springs perhaps in Central Australia

[Jon Wiggett]

Sutton Bay is one that I was thinking as well. How about Machrihanish?

What about Machrie?

[Scott Weersing]

I think in all the properties identified here the question can get back to  Is it "worth' the effort to go there?

There needs to be a hook for it to work.  One or more aspects such as location, uniqueness, quality, celebrity and of course overall scale of the property are what is weighed in making that decission.  With that in mind, the lesser each of those (and others) aspects are the less likely it will work.  Also today, marketing plays a huge part since there are many options out there.  In few situations does the build it and they will come reasoning work anymore.

Bandon has several of those things going for it with scale being the only thing that is changing.  Others listed may have nice designs and a nice remote location, but is it a special location - say on the ocean.  Is it at least remote from a major metro area or remote from everything.

I would consider my course at Laughin Ranch a remote property since you really have to comitt to go there specifically as it is not on a prime route between two large cities.  As good as it is, I believe it would benefit from another quaity golf experience in the area so it gets put on more of a golf destination map. It is close to Vegas but most have allready travelled to Vegas and do not want to go on from there. (Heck, most dont have rental cars.)  People do go on to Mesquite from Vegas, but Mesquite benefits from scale with numerous courses to play as a destination.  Laughlin and Mesquite are pretty much the same distance from Vegas but Mesquite has developed more as a golfing mecca.  Laughlin Ranch is a superior golf course to anything in Mequite (I know some of you are passionate about Wolf Creek) but Mesquite has more courses that work together on PR and marketing.

It all gets back to some sort of value reasoning and is it Worth it. BTW todays economy is going to make it even tougher to survive remotely. 

I agree that there has be a hook, or uniqueness, to travel to a remote location.

Would you travel to Bandon to play a links course designed by Fazio and another course designed by Nicklaus? No, because there is a Fazio, Nicklaus, Rees Jones, Palmer course only an hour from where you live.

 We travel and get away for unique experiences that we can only experience in one place. Once Bandon is no longer unique (they add golf carts, spa, tennis courts, pool, and beach umbrellas). then we will no longer be hooked on Bandon.

While people advised Keiser to use a name architect, he went completely the other way and built a course that he liked. He guessed correctly that there would be other golfers who love links, walking-only, courses.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Foulpointe & Kauri. Is the former's fate the latter's destiny?

[Mike_Young]

Let me say there will be exceptions to my thoughts below.....BUT most of these remote places have one thing in common if they are to survive...AN OWNER WITH DEEP POCKETS THAT SUBSIDIZES THE PLACE.....and when he gets tired of it...well who knows....not many of these places can show a plan to a bank that works so most are just a dream of the owners and I personally think that is fantastic but at the same time these types of owners can afford to drop it if they choose.....I would venture to guess that most people that talk them up and play them only do so once every two years at the most......AND that requires a lot of players to make it work even at high green fees....JMO   Kenny Rogers built such a place near me a few years ago....if he was to give it to someone it would cost them 2 mill a year to take care of the place....

[Gene Greco]

I would venture to guess that most people that talk them up and play them only do so once every two years at the most......AND that requires a lot of players to make it work even at high green fees....JMO   

Mike:

    I visit Sand Hills three times a season. The season is only four months long, June - Sept, and is closed the rest of the year. Most members I know visit at least once a season.

    Green fee for a guest is $125.

    And that's for 36 (THIRTY SIX) holes.

         
        Gene

[Mike_Young]

I would venture to guess that most people that talk them up and play them only do so once every two years at the most......AND that requires a lot of players to make it work even at high green fees....JMO   

Mike:

    I visit Sand Hills three times a season. The season is only four months long, June - Sept, and is closed the rest of the year. Most members I know visit at least once a season.

    Green fee for a guest is $125.



    And that's for 36 (THIRTY SIX) holes.

         
        Gene

Gene,
I think that is great and understand where you  are coming from.  I think it is a fantastic place and it may be the exception as I stated....if they play 300 rounds per week for 17 weeks a year...that equals about $5000 rounds....if 75% of those rounds are guest at $125.00 that would be about $470,000 .....with dues etc it can work.....BUT most are going to take much more $$$....IMHO Mike

[Kalen Braley]

Let me say there will be exceptions to my thoughts below.....BUT most of these remote places have one thing in common if they are to survive...AN OWNER WITH DEEP POCKETS THAT SUBSIDIZES THE PLACE.....and when he gets tired of it...well who knows....not many of these places can show a plan to a bank that works so most are just a dream of the owners and I personally think that is fantastic but at the same time these types of owners can afford to drop it if they choose.....I would venture to guess that most people that talk them up and play them only do so once every two years at the most......AND that requires a lot of players to make it work even at high green fees....JMO   Kenny Rogers built such a place near me a few years ago....if he was to give it to someone it would cost them 2 mill a year to take care of the place....

I think Mike's sentiments most accurately match how I felt when first posting this thread.  It seems like it really has to be an outstanding course to work, or its just going to be NLE or turn into a dog track. 

I know there are small munis out there already that are remote, but they don't rely on outside visitors to stay afloat and are about as generic as golf gets, just based on what I've seen.

Based on the input I've read so far, it would seem that additional quality tracks are almost a necessity for the long term health of such places, aka repeat business. And if this doesn't happen, then its almost a must to have to be a private course where the dues can be counted on.

[Jim Nugent]

If Sand Hills is open four months a year, how much does it cost per year to maintain it?

[Phil McDade]

Kalen:

I'm not entirely sure I agree with your premise -- Machrihanish may be an exception. It's a bear to get there by conventional means -- a good 3-4 hours by car from Glasgow's airport. Yet with little (and I do mean little -- Machrihanish is really just a collection of a few homes, and Campeltown is a somewhat less-than-compelling place) to offer besides the nearby, ultra-quirky and quite short Dunaverty 15 miles away, Machrihanish seems to do OK. My sense (in reading the guest book at one of the primary guest houses that overlooks the course) is that the course depends on locals from Campbeltown, folks on long weekends from Glasgow and the Ayrshire coast, and some overseas traffic from the U.S. and mainland Europe.

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