[Kalen Braley]

The Bandon thread(s) got me thinking about remoteness and what effect this has (or not) on great destination courses.  Bandon Resort in its early days was a HUGE risk when only the single course existed, the resort was brand new, and mostly unknown.  Additionally for those who have been there, its very remote, and at times difficult it is to get to.  If Bandon Dunes was the only course built due to business plan, permitting, or other constraints, would it have been feasible on its own?

I'm trying to think of other examples where top-notch ranked layouts exist on thier own, AND are remote.  Sand Hills has Wild Horse to complement it.  Ballyneal is only 2 hours from Denver. Barnbougle Dunes is now getting a sister course.  Banff Springs isn't too far from Calgary.

Just how feasible is it for a top notch layout to keep its tee sheets full, bills payed, and otherwise solvent when its a one-trick pony of sorts in a very remote location?  Could Bandon have surivived on its own without the other resort courses?  Sure one could mix Sand Pines into said trip, but its a big step down and likely not a "destination" course.  With Portland 4-5 hours away, would the Bandon experiment have worked?  As a general hypothetical, can a one course destination course work and if so what examples of this exist?

Perhaps Cabot Links?  I really don't know just speculating anyways as the course doesn't yet exist.

[Will MacEwen]

I expect Wyndandsea in Ucluelet, BC to be a bust.  It is very remote, and subject to weather that makes Bandon look like LaJolla.

[Kirk Gill]

What about Cabot Links (at some point) ?

Or Sutton Bay?

Black Sand Golf Club?

Or even Cape Kidnappers?

[Kalen Braley]

What about Cabot Links (at some point) ?

Or Sutton Bay?

Black Sand Golf Club?

Or even Cape Kidnappers?

Sutton Bay is a good example, I'm guessing its private nature is keeping it afloat.

Black Sand I've never heard of.

Cape Kidnappers - While NZ is remote, I've heard there are other good options not too far away to bundle into a trip, but I'ver never been there.

Just thought of a couple more

Rawls Course and GreyWalls...both pretty far to get too.  Rawls has the college to support it, just speculating, but GreyWalls sure seems to be on its own!!! 

[David Stamm]

Sutton Bay is one that I was thinking as well. How about Machrihanish?

[Tom Huckaby]

These examples prove somewhat that if you build it, and make it GREAT, they will come.

My feeling is Bandon could have done just fine with only the first course.

But I am not a businessman, nor do I play one on TV.  I'm just thinking it's a damn fine course that many would seek out, repeatedly.  It's pretty unique (or was before it's sister courses were built) to the USA (public links-ish golf, cliffs above the ocean) and many would seek it out repeatedly just for that.

The reaction to it was rather nutso positive when it opened.  I don't see it fading away in popularity ever... just because it would have been so unique.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

These examples prove somewhat that if you build it, and make it GREAT, they will come.

My feeling is Bandon could have done just fine with only the first course.

But I am not a businessman, nor do I play one on TV.  I'm just thinking it's a damn fine course that many would seek out, repeatedly.  It's pretty unique (or was before it's sister courses were built) to the USA (public links-ish golf, cliffs above the ocean) and many would seek it out repeatedly just for that.

The reaction to it was rather nutso positive when it opened.  I don't see it fading away in popularity ever... just because it would have been so unique.

TH

So Tom,

Would you have made all the pilgrimmages to Bandon that you've made over the years if it was just the 1 course?  And not to single out Bandon Dunes per se.  The same could be true if PD, or BT was the only course out there.

[Tom Huckaby]

Yeah, I think I would have.  I'd play the course multiple times.  I might head to something else, perhaps, but then again, maybe not.

But I am a very bad example.  I've been there three times, yes... but I didn't go until Pacific Dunes was built.  Couldn't make it happen before then.  So this is of course all theoretical.

 

TH

[Kirk Gill]

I'll freely admit to not having made it down under to play at all, much less in New Zealand, much less out at Cape Kidnappers.

I just seem to remember someone mentioning the need for a ferry to get there, or a helicopter ride, or somesuch.

Black Sand golf club (not the one in Beulah, ND) is, like Cabot Links, not yet in existence, but it is set to be built in Iceland by Faldo and Smyers. Of course, since I read about it the entire project could be NLE. The black dunes sure look amazing, though.

http://apieeaterspeaks.blogspot.com/2007/09/black-sand-golf-in-iceland.html

[Kalen Braley]

David,

I can't speak for Macarnish as I really have no clue where it is other than somewhere in Scotland!!! 

Tom,

Understood, with two courses as opposed to one, that does tend to double the variety.     But man that sure is a long drive from San Jose...a soild 7 hours on mostly 2 lane highway.   

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen - it is a long drive.  But there are these things called airplanes.

 

As for me, I was dying to go from the first I heard of it, which was well before it opened... it just took that long to get the hall pass.  Such is my life.

TH

[Robert Emmons]

I think Bandon as a single course would have done just fine. My wife and I went the first year and just loved it. The golf, scenery, food, and fun all made a special place. We have been back twice since and still enjoy it, but that first year was special....ps we live in New york...RHE

[Tim Leahy]

A perfect example of a failed attempt is Diablo Grande here in No. Cal.  Two very good golf courses, 36 holes with 18 designed by Nicklaus/Sarazin. Has gone belly up because they could not get a road built to give the San Jose residents a quicker route to the area. The main road in is two hours from anywhere and just too far to drop in for a round, but too close to build a resort hotel with nothing else to draw people to the area. Too isolated.

[Tom Huckaby]

Robert brings up a very good point, another part of this....

My feeling also is that as the years have gone on, the accolades have piled up, the prices have gone up, well... at least some of the spirit that made Bandon so special has been lost.  When I first went - and remember, this was shortly after Pacific Dunes opened - the spirit at the place was golf, golf, golf, with very little pretense. I can only go by stories of how it was when it was just Bandon, but Robert alludes to it and I fully understand.   Oh they TRY to maintain that now... but well... pretense kind of comes with the territory with the prices they now charge.  The clientele has also changed to match the prices.  It's been wildly sucessful in every way shape and form, for sure.

But I have to believe those pioneers like Robert who came there for the golf and golf alone when it was just the one course would have kept coming back.  It might have been more of a loosely-held secret, but the place would have succeeded.

TH

[Andy Troeger]

Want a one trick pony in a remote location? Go find Pinon Hills in Farmington, NM. Its over 2 hours from Albuquerque, and there's not much else up that way.

[Tom_Doak]

Kalen:

I think Bandon Dunes would have done fine on its own, but opening a second course of equal quality was like the second stage on a rocket ... it put it into a higher orbit, where more people from far away are willing to make the trip.  When there's just one course, there is always the suspicion that it is overhyped, no matter how good it really is.  And there is a lot of competition.

Highlands Links in Nova Scotia is a great example of a course which few people ever venture to see -- Cabot Links hopes to be the second stage on that rocket, but without Highlands Links to piggyback on, I doubt anyone would have invested in Cabot.  Mike Keiser only invested in Barnbougle knowing that there was land for a second course if the first proved modestly successful, which it has.  Ballyneal is considering more golf, too. 

And right now I'm sitting in the Air New Zealand lounge at LAX, on my way to look at the routing I did five years ago for an additional course at Cape Kidnappers -- a "Sheep Ranch" type course down in the valley past the first 18, which would be a good alternative on windy days and priced for the Kiwis as well as the overseas visitors.  We haven't got the green light yet but it may be close at hand.

[Tim Bert]

A couple comments on the original locations referenced.  

I think Sand Hills, with the strength of the course and its national membership didn't really need Wild Horse to compliment it.  I don't think there's any doubt it would have been a success as a standalone model.

Banff Springs could exist just because of Banff itself.  That town attracts so many annual tourists that it would get enough rounds even if it weren't so close to Calgary.  It isn't my favorite non-golfing destination in the world for nothing.  The golf is just a bonus, and a darn fine course it is.  

Bandon, I agree that the model with only one course is questionable, but fortunately for all of us Keiser was wise enough to build 3 (and a short course and more to come!)  I'm with Tom in that I wanted to get out there for years, but the time and money weren't budgeted for the trip.  I had read about Bandon Dunes on the Internet and in every publication and wanted to get there.  I would have eventually even for just the one course, but I wouldn't have been an every-other-year return visitor without additional courses - and more specifically Pacific Dunes.

So, I guess I think the remote, single elite course option can work but it most likely needs to be 1) private with the right kind of membership or 2) have a different primary draw beyond golf, with the course as a bonus.

[Joe Bentham]

Kalen--

I think your missing the point.  The fact that Pacific Dunes was built is a testament to how well Bandon was doing on its own.  Mr. K didn't roll the dice with Pac hoping to attract more people to the resort.  Pacific Dunes (and please if I'm wrong TomD correct me) was green lighted because of the success of Bandon.  I would also say the same thing for Barnbougle Dunes, the second is a go because the first has done so well.
As for Sand Hills and Ballyneal, they are completely different animals.  As private, national membership clubs the remoteness is part of the appeal and I would argue make it along quite nicely as single golf courses.  Sand Hills gets no more or no less play then it did before Wild Horse opened.  And if the glowing reports about Ballyneal are half true then I'm sure it'll be some time before the Ballyneal members grow tired of their single course (as in never). 
Truly great golf courses are only enhanced by multiple plays.  If you walk off a golf course thinking about the course your going to play next what does that say about the one you just played?

[Chris Kane]

Machrihanish doesn't count because, first and foremost, its a club for the people of that community. 

[Pete_Pittock]

Pinehurst, before they had to start numbering them.

We may be discounting the shrinkage of the world. Is Bandon remote being 4 1/2 hours from Portland? Back in the late 1800s and early 1900s many British courses, such as Gleneagles, would have been considered more remote, even by train. I'd hate to even mention how remote Dornoch must have been except to those who lived in Inverness, or Cruden Bay except for Aberdeeners.

I hate to admit it but I made winter pilgrimages to Sandpines when there was a break in the weather which coincided with my weekend because it was warmer and less muddy than Portland.

[Rich Goodale]

I was at Connemarra last week and it certainly fits the bill.  It seems to survive largely through the largesse of American visitors/members.  Very good course (27) with the best 360 degree views from the clubhouse I have ever seen.  If you are into splendid isoalation, this is one of the places for you.

[Melvyn Morrow]

One thing we must remember are the dates when these clubs/course came into play. Places like Machrihanish, Machrie etc relied upon visitors and generally accessible via the Railways or Steamers in the Victorian Age. Whilst clubs were formed for the local community they needed to attract the daily visitor, which pre World War 1 arrived in large groups. Remember this was the time that many of the UK Piers were being introduced, with the daily Steamer trips from the end of the Piers and the great expansion of the Railways. Places like Cruden Bay and Strathpeffer Spa came about because of the railways direct connection.

As these services diminished/declined so did many of the early clubs. Islay in Scotland is a classic case, Machrie survived whilst Uisguintuie did not as the island did not have enough population to maintain two clubs, plus Machrie was closer to the main port and most visitors did not want to walk another five miles or so to the next course.  So access was important for the older clubs.

[cary lichtenstein]

I've been to most of these remote locations and without a doubt, the golf is great. Highland Links is a gem, just to pick out one, but I doubt I would ever go back.


It takes a full day, 3 flights to get there,plus a 1 or 2 hour car ride from the airport, the accomodations are just fair and there is just nothing to do after golf. We usually like to go away for a week or 10 days.

Now Bandon is ideal because it has the 3 courses, Greywalls isn't because it is just too remote.

The remote privates are a whole different genre, either you live somewhere where you can drive 2 to 5 hours,  or you or your buddy has a private jet. I would guess that is the profile of the private remotes because how many times a year are you going to a remote for 2 days and take a full day on either side to get there?

You have too many mutilple public choices of quality, eg, Pinehurt, Greenbriar/Homestead, Kohler, Sea Island, Pebble Beach, etc.

If you take a course like Barnbougle Dunes, once they build a 2nd course, I think their rounds played with increase dramatically, eg, if they have 15,000/20,000 with the one course, I think they'll do closer to 50,000/60,000 with 2 plus I think there will be more repeat customers.

I know for example, we didn't return to Bandon, we went for 4 days to play the first course, until there were 3 courses, and we will return again after Old McDonald is built and we will play Bandon Crossings on that trip as well.

When we lived in Chicago, we went to Kohler twice a year. The original course, which is now part of 2 courses, was a dream and the 2 hour drive was a piece of cake. That's why I think for Ballyneal, any resident in Denver who doesn't join is just plain nuts.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Back in the 60s anywhere on Ireland's Atlantic Coast was remote. Aficionados knew of Ballybunion and Lahinch, but they weren't then on the international radar. When my father and I visited Waterville there wasn't even a course there at that time - it was a fishing hotel and little else. Rosapenna, Port Salon, Narin and Portnoo were deserted. Green fees were peanuts, you could walk straight onto the course and play. It was much the same in Scotland away from the immediate surroundings and effects of the Open Championship links. We paid our green fee for Southerness at the local hotel bar - there wasn't even a clubhouse in those days.

Looking back to undergraduate days, courses such as Frilford Heath and Huntercombe were effectively out of range unless you could find someone who had a car to get you there - cars belonging to undergraduates were not permitted within the city boundaries, and with parking at premium there would have been few places to keep one. So it was by bike to Southfield or North Oxford that we went, usually Southfield as we had playing rights for £5 a year.

[rjsimper]

I do not think I would have dropped the coin to go to Bandon were there not at least 2 courses, and I'm pretty sure Sand Hills would have been just fine without a $40 public layout opening within helicopter distance...regardless of how good the course is.

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