[DMoriarty]

The sources, including HIW, point to him becoming involved in Jan 1911.

David,

If the source materials are the string of different quotes, indirectly linked, from interviews and writings at later dates with the NGLA trip as the sole unassailably accurate date in the whole pot, I am afraid that's does not quite pass muster with me.

Is there something more clear than that?

Is Hugh Wilson's own description not enough to satisfy you?

"The Merion Cricket Club, of Philadelphia, played golf on leased property for nearly twenty years and, as is usual in this country, the land became so valuable that the club was forced to move.  This experience showed the value of permanency, so early in 1911 the Club appointed a committee consisting of Messrs. Lloyd, Griscom, Francis, Toulman and Wilson to construct a new course on the 125 acres of land which had been purchased."

Wilson wrote  that the committee was appointed in early 1911.  He also wrote that they were charged with constructing a course on land which had been purchased.   The purchase was reportedly finalized in January 1911.

I have found no record or indication that Wilson was at all involved before January 1911.

The first written record of a Wilson activity (other than his description of the NGLA trip) is a February 1, 1911 letter from Wilson to Piper in Washington.   On June 29, 1910 CBM advised Merion to send soil samples to Washington, but Wilson did not begin to act on this advice until February 1, 1911, when he also sent Piper a contour map.   After the first letter, Wilson apparently sent at least a letter a month to Piper and/or Oakley (according to TEPaul.)    So he became very active starting February 1, 1911, but before this we no sign of his activity.

Maybe Wayne found earlier involvement but I assume if he did then he would have posted that.

 

[paul cowley]

I'm beginning to think that y'all need to spend some time on the A to Z of a golf course's construction to fully appreciate the process.

Merion is so typical of many cases.

[JESII]

David,

Have you ever wondered, while doing all this reasearch, why Merion would name a 31 (?) year old chairman of a committee when the other personalities on that committee were pretty significant?

When I see that, and take in all the facts you guys have laid out (   ), especially the activity through 1909 and 1910 it really piques my interest about who this guy was...and where he was prior to October 1910...

[JESII]

I'm beginning to think that y'all need to spend some time on the A to Z of a golf course's construction to fully appreciate the process.

Paul,

Where would January 1911 fall in the alphabet of this process.

Committee formed in 1909 and construction was complete in Sep. 1911.

[Mike_Cirba]

David,

Have you ever wondered, while doing all this reasearch, why Merion would name a 31 (?) year old chairman of a committee when the other personalities on that committee were pretty significant?

When I see that, and take in all the facts you guys have laid out (   ), especially the activity through 1909 and 1910 it really piques my interest about who this guy was...and where he was prior to October 1910...

Jim,

He was on the planet Xenon, having his empty head vacuumed for his trip to earth where it was to be filled by Charles Macdonald, by order of Intergalactic Leader Orth640.

[TEPaul]

"The Merion Cricket Club, of Philadelphia, played golf on leased property for nearly twenty years and, as is usual in this country, the land became so valuable that the club was forced to move.  This experience showed the value of permanency, so early in 1911 the Club appointed a committee consisting of Messrs. Lloyd, Griscom, Francis, Toulman and Wilson to construct a new course on the 125 acres of land which had been purchased."

Wilson wrote  that the committee was appointed in early 1911.  He also wrote that they were charged with constructing a course on land which had been purchased.   The purchase was reportedly finalized in January 1911.

I have found no record or indication that Wilson was at all involved before January 1911.

The first written record of a Wilson activity (other than his description of the NGLA trip) is a February 1, 1911 letter from Wilson to Piper in Washington.   On June 29, 1910 CBM advised Merion to send soil samples to Washington, but Wilson did not begin to act on this advice until February 1, 1911, when he also sent Piper a contour map.   After the first letter, Wilson apparently sent at least a letter a month to Piper and/or Oakley (according to TEPaul.)    So he became very active starting February 1, 1911, but before this we no sign of his activity.

Maybe Wayne found earlier involvement but I assume if he did then he would have posted that."


Moriarty:

This is what's so ludicrous!

You say Hugh Wilson had nothing to do with the routing and design of the course because his committe wasn't appointed until Jan. 1911??

YOU SAY Richard Francis was on the same committee that was appointed in Jan, 1911 but yet you have him out there "Tweaking" Macdonald's routing and design BEFORE 1911. Why is that if his committee had not been appointed yet???  

Did Francis SAY he was out there in 1910?? Did ANYONE, EVER, say he was out there in 1910 other than you and your speculation??

If anyone ever did mention that Francis was out there working on a routing and architecture IN 1910 would you please show us where or when anyone said that--including Francis???  

  

[paul cowley]

I'm beginning to think that y'all need to spend some time on the A to Z of a golf course's construction to fully appreciate the process.

Paul,

Where would January 1911 fall in the alphabet of this process.

Committee formed in 1909 and construction was complete in Sep. 1911.

Approximately 8 mos earlier if I understand the question?

[JESII]

Tom,

It is my speculation that much of the routing occurred well before Nov. 15, 1910...and I am not trying to back into a way for CBM to have routed and/or designed the course.

When you were contemplating the Androssan project, did you wait until the land deal was complete before looking at possible routings? Why would these guys?

Whomever is in possesion of that Nov. 15 aerial of the HDC and Merion properties, is the scale legible at the bottom there? It does not seem to be on my screen.

[TEPaul]

"The first written record of a Wilson activity (other than his description of the NGLA trip) is a February 1, 1911 letter from Wilson to Piper in Washington.   On June 29, 1910 CBM advised Merion to send soil samples to Washington, but Wilson did not begin to act on this advice until February 1, 1911, when he also sent Piper a contour map.   After the first letter, Wilson apparently sent at least a letter a month to Piper and/or Oakley (according to TEPaul.)    So he became very active starting February 1, 1911, but before this we no sign of his activity."


Moriarty:

It's true that the very first DIRECT factual evidence of Wilson becoming involved in the process of the creation of Merion East  was that Feb 1, 1911 letter to Piper. Can you show us any DIRECT FACTUAL evidence when Francis was involved BEFORE that??

[TEPaul]

"Tom,

It is my speculation that much of the routing occurred well before Nov. 15, 1910...and I am not trying to back into a way for CBM to have routed and/or designed the course.

When you were contemplating the Androssan project, did you wait until the land deal was complete before looking at possible routings? Why would these guys?"


Sully:

This is good intuition on your part, in my opinion. Why indeed would Wilson and his fellow committee members become involved in the routing, design and creation of Merion East ONLY after the site was bought.

And yes, I worked on that routing and design of Ardrossan for a full two years and maybe 500 hours on my part and maybe 50 hours on Coore's part and that was all BEFORE the land was bought. Matter of fact, the land never was bought! 

[JESII]

I know...

If a similar circumstance ever arose for any one of us on this board, we would do the same thing...even you David, I know it.

When did the Board of Governors at Merion BEGIN TO THINK they might need to relocate? Not the announcement we heard about from 1909...when would have been the first inclination that a new site might be needed?

[Mike_Cirba]

Sully,

Your instincts are sound, my friend.   

Also, a wise man once told me that to find the true answer to anything...follow the money.

Why would Macdonald send his letter to Lloyd?

And ironically, David may be correct that Hugh Wilson's Construction Committee was tasked in 1911 with doing exactly that.

But, that doesn't mean that Wilson and his Committtee didn't design the course.

Are we on the same page?

For some years prior, the combination of the Haskell ball and how that suddenly outmoded all the Philly courses including Merion, as well as the memberships inability to purchase the land on which they played (as well as adjoining land) brought converging forces upon them to come up with a long-term, reasonable, affordable solution.    The Haskell ball was introduced in 1898, and was univerally adopted by 1901.  It was instantly revolutionary and although we rightly bemoan technological change today it instantly increased shots by 20 yards.

It suddenly and absolutely changed the entire face of the game, especially after Sandy Herd won the British Open with it in 1902, and its popularity exploded. 

David's White Paper tries to discount this entire issue, but it was an issue that every single club/course built before that time had to face.

What's more, at that time in Philly, the local players were performing very poorly in regional and national events and a lot of the top players like Tillinghast, Ab Smith, George Crump and others felt that it was due to the paucity of truly challenging, championship courses in the city.

This was also much of the impetus for the creation of Cobb's Creek, as well as it's challenge and difficulty.

When Merion and Pine Valley were built, much of the motivation was once again to build a "Championship Course".

CB Macdonald's words in his letter must have been a bit deflating in that regard, frankly.  In addition, he clearly did not seem particularly interested in taking any type of detailed work for Merion, so they were left to somewhat of their own devices.

[DMoriarty]

Jim

HDC offered the land on June 10.  The deal wasnt reached until close to November 15.  Isn't it possible that this when Merion was tinkering.


TEPaul, the difference is we have no reason to place Wilson there until January.    Let's assume he was there.   Why didnt he send the soil sample as Macdonald suggested?   As diligent as he was, why didnt he get going in July?

You guys are letting our wishes, rather than the facts, dictate your positions.

You guys were just posting that Wilson was not involved until January 1911, and so the swap must have occurred later.   Now you are saying that Wilson must have been there earlier.   

It seems to me that you guys will move Wilson around to whereever you need him to be, in order to keep your best wishes alive. 

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul, the difference is we have no reason to place Wilson there until January."


WE have no reason to place Wilson there until January??? 

I think you must mean YOU have no reason to place him there until January 1911.   

It has never made any logical sense to any of us that YOU have Francis' BEFORE NOVEMBER 15 1910 spending hours over a drawing boad and running intruments in the field and just plain talking, ALL of which he explained as part of his land swap story with Lloyd, BEFORE HIS COMMITTEE CHAIRED BY WILSON HAD BEEN APPOINTED! YOU have Wilson just sitting on the sidelines doing nothing while two men who were going to serve on his committee were OUT THERE before November 15, 1910 "TWEAKING" Macdonald's routing and course design.

It has always occured to us that the ONLY reason you have Francis and Lloyd out there doing that before November 15, 1910 is because that's THE ONLY WAY you can explain Francis' land swap story AND STILL maintain YOUR SPECULATION that they were USING AND WORKING on a Macdonald routing and design plan that the words of Macdonald's own June 1910 LETTER does not come remotely close to mentioning or even implying!!!

Listen, do not ASSUME that any of us have EVER THOUGHT there is no way that Francis and Lloyd could NOT have been out there working on a routing and design BEFORE November 15, 1910! Of course they could have been. What we find so laughable is that YOU have ASSUMED that Hugh Wilson was not out there in 1910 BECAUSE his committee HAD NOT YET BEEN APPOINTED!!! 

Well, David Moriarty, Richard Francis and Horatio Gates Lloyd HAD NOT YET BEEN APPOINTED TO THAT COMMITTEE EITHER UNTIL JANUARY, 1911.

What interests and basically amuses us is just how transparently Illogical your ASSUMPTIONS are in this over-all vein!! 

You explain it all away with your logic that it must be a fact that Francis and Lloyd were out there before November 15, 1910 BECAUSE they must have been working on a Macdonald Routing and course design. THIS is the only way you can explain that Francis' land-swap story that at no time and in no way even remotely implies he was out there before November 15, 1910 or that his land-swap idea occured in the year of 1910. If you think there is anything at all in the words of that Francis' story that indicate the event of that story took place BEFORE Nov. 15, 1910, please do us all a favor and show us WHERE AND WHAT they are in his words in that story!! 

The ONLY reason you could be using such logic is because you are ATTEMPTING to use as a FACT (that there was a Macdonald routing and design) to explain your conclusion that there was a Macdonald routing and design plan at all.

One simply does not attempt to use as a FACT the very thing that they are attempting to conclude and/or prove may be a fact.

This is all precisely why we believe not just that your conclusion is not true but why we (and most of the people from Merion) believe your logic in attempting to come to your conclusion is just a mass and maize of TOTALLY SPECIOUS REASONING!!

Attempting to base the VERY SAME THING you are trying to conclude (a Macdonald routing and design) on something that's A FACT (the Macdonald routing and design) is just really funny, and that's what you have tried to do in this essay.

The problem with all this is you either must not have much idea of the difference between speculation and fact or else you must think all of us are so stupid we may not be able to understand the difference between your speculation and what really is fact.

Unfortunately, some of us here aren't quite that stupid, David Moriarty! 

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sully:

This is good intuition on your part, in my opinion. Why indeed would Wilson and his fellow committee members become involved in the routing, design and creation of Merion East ONLY after the site was bought.

You state, "fellow committee members" implying that the committee was already formed at an earlier date.

But, don't we know that the Construction committee didn't come into existance until Jan/Feb of 1911 ?

Hence, the Construction Committee couldn't have begun work earlier because it didn't exist.

I repeat that which I stated on another thread.
Is it possible that Merion had numerous committees charged with different tasks ?

Tasks such as site selection, course design and course construction.[/color]

[TEPaul]

"Hence, the Construction Committee couldn't have begun work earlier because it didn't exist."

Patrick:

Then why does Moriarty have Francis and Lloyd out there in 1910 'tweaking' Macdonald's routing??   


"I repeat that which I stated on another thread.
Is it possible that Merion had numerous committees charged with different tasks?
Tasks such as site selection, course design and course construction."



Patrick:

No it is not. MCC only had two committees involved with the finding and creation of Merion East:

1. The "Special Search Committee for New Golf Grounds." (I have no idea where Moriarty came up with the term "Site Committee". I guess he just made that up like most of the rest in his essay.

2. The "Special Construction Committee"

[Patrick_Mucci]

"Hence, the Construction Committee couldn't have begun work earlier because it didn't exist."

Patrick:

Then why does Moriarty have Francis and Lloyd out there in 1910 'tweaking' Macdonald's routing??   

I suspect, because he feels that another committee or individuals were tasked with that responsibility prior to the creation of the Construction Committee.[/color]

"I repeat that which I stated on another thread.
Is it possible that Merion had numerous committees charged with different tasks?

Tasks such as site selection, course design and course construction."

Patrick:

No it is not. MCC only had two committees involved with the finding and creation of Merion East:

1. The "Special Search Committee for New Golf Grounds." (I have no idea where Moriarty came up with the term "Site Committee". I guess he just made that up like most of the rest in his essay.

2. The "Special Construction Committee"


If that is a fact, then is is possible that one of the tasks of the "special search committee for New Golf Grounds" was to rout and design the golf course before turning the project over to the construction commitee.

 ?[/color]

[TEPaul]

"I suspect, because he feels that another committee or individuals were tasked with that responsibility prior to the creation of the Construction Committee."

Patrick:

There were no other committees other than those two involved in the finding and creating of Merion East, and that's a fact. Richard Francis was only on one of them---eg the "Special Contruction Committee" apparently formed in Jan. 1911 and chaired by Hugh Wilson.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick:

There were no other committees other than those two involved in the finding and creating of Merion East, and that's a fact. Richard Francis was only on one of them---eg the "Special Contruction Committee" apparently formed in Jan. 1911 and chaired by Hugh Wilson.

Tom,

Are you now comfortable with that date...Jan 1911 for the creation of the Special Construction Committee?   I know we weren't certain prior.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Are you now comfortable with that date...Jan 1911 for the creation of the Special Construction Committee?   I know we weren't certain prior."

Mike:

Probably a little more than I have been in the past. I mean, I thought there was a fair possibility that Hugh Wilson may've made a mistake by a year with the date of the appointment of that committee in his 1916 report. One reason one might suspect that is on the next page of his report he really did make a mistake by a year TWICE on the date for the building of the West Course and then the opening of the west course. And those two real mistakes of a year survived about four drafts by him.

But the real point is it doesn't make any difference if his committee was appointed in Jan 1911 or if he didn't go abroad in 1910. The fact is Wilson and his committee routed, designed and built Merion East with some help from Macdonald in 1911. Macdonald just didn't do a routing for MCC in 1910 and that's the truth of the history of it. Moriarty thinks Macdonald did provide them with a routing in 1910 and  he claims Francis and Lloyd "tweaked" the 15th and 16th hole before Nov, 15, 1910. It just didn't happen that way---as I've said for weeks or months now!  Francis' late night idea which he went to Lloyd about happened in 1911 and not 1910 as Moriarty claimed and built most of his conclusion on.

The truth will come out but with some of these people like Moriarty essentially demanding that these clubs make their archives available to people like him it may not come out soon. Some of them in these clubs read this website too and the total lack of logic he's foisted on here to challenge what he and people like MacWood and Mucci say are "legends" and the "status quo" and need challenging really isn't accomplishing anything positive with the lack of logic Moriarty has used in his essay. That's not exactly the way to gain access to some clubs' archives even if he may think it is. But I guarantee the true story will come out eventually and he will be proven wrong in his essay.

[DMoriarty]

Jim,

I am not sure that Merion created the site Committee in 1909.   It is in my essay, but for the life of me I cannot figure out the basis for the statement other than Tolhurst.   If I cannot document it then I will clarify it. 

But even if the site Committee had been appointed in 1909 (and they may have been) I still do not understand why you think they would have been focusing on this particular site prior to June 1910. 

My guess it is because of the misinformation that has been disseminated about Merion's and/or Lloyd's supposed involvement in HDC.   I am aware of no facts that link either with HDC at an early date.   TEPaul has claimed that the 1909 deed somehow implicates Merion and/or Lloyd in the transaction but this is just not the case.

If Merion did not seriously consider the property before June 1910, then wouldn't they have been trying to figure out the routing in June through November 1910, when they made the deal? 

________________________

TEPaul, Lloyd was on the site Committee so he obviously would have been involved in figuring out the site to be purchased.  You have repeatedly implied that if he was there then Wilson would have been there as well, but his is specious at best. 

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul has claimed that the 1909 deed somehow implicates Merion and/or Lloyd in the transaction but this is just not the case."

Moriarty:

TEPaul has somehow "implicated" Merion and/or Lloyd in the transaction???

IMPLICATED??

What the hell are you talking about now? You've got to be losing it, and I can certainly understand why, at this point----your whole misconceived essay it going down the toilet fast and you're taking it all so personaly!   

All I said about Lloyd and HDC is that I would like to determine when he got involved with it or even if he created it (which is seemingly unlikely in 1909). But one thing is sure, and that is by the end of 1910 he controlled it and if you don't know that yet, you don't know much about Merion other than to spit out the dumb line---'We don't want to discuss the lives of the rich and famous'. 

[DMoriarty]

All I said about Lloyd and HDC is that I would like to determine when he got involved with it or even if he created it (which is seemingly unlikely in 1909). But one thing is sure, and that is by the end of 1910 he controlled it and if you don't know that yet, you don't know much about Merion other than to spit out the dumb line---'We don't want to discuss the lives of the rich and famous'. 

Surely you are joking?   You claimed that this deed conclusively proved that Merion purchased the land in 1909.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

"I suspect, because he feels that another committee or individuals were tasked with that responsibility prior to the creation of the Construction Committee."

Patrick:

There were no other committees other than those two involved in the finding and creating of Merion East, and that's a fact. Richard Francis was only on one of them---eg the "Special Contruction Committee" apparently formed in Jan. 1911 and chaired by Hugh Wilson.

Are you positive ?

Are you sure that Merion didn't have a "Golf Committee" ?

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Yes, the app. fifteen year old MCC Golf Association that was out of the Haverford course at that time had a golf committee like most all clubs do but it had absolutely nothing to do with the move to Ardmore like those other two committees did.

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