[Patrick Kiser]

Someone please explain to me the value add of that stupid tree in the 18th fairway over any other option?  Lame, lame, lame.  I can't believe no one has mentioned this.  It just doesn't feel right to me.

I can see how this topic could be elaborated on ad nauseam, but there are a couple of things about Pebble that really stood out for me. 

First, for the first time I somehow remembered just about every single shot from my round.  That immediately makes the course memorable to me.

Second, the small greens in some tough wind (as in 1-6-08 ... the day after the worst storm in years...). 

Third, the routing.  I liked it ... a lot.  Decent directional changes and exposure to the elements.  Good ebb and flow.

Fourth, the stretch from the 6th through the 10th.  Wow!  Has to be a world class stretch!  Especially the 8th.  Brilliant hole.

Fifth, hodge podge bunkering.  What can I say, I like bunkers.  And at Pebble it seems to me from one hole to the next, some of the bunkers just feel out of character in design.  The bunkering style isn't consistent throughout.

Last but not least ... why is it an obsession to compare courses?  Why can't a course be appreciated on it's own without going into comparisons?

From one course to the next, the context is different.  The geography and topography is different.  The architect can be different, etc.  It goes on and on...

I'm glad I went and won't forget anytime soon.

[David Ober]

#6 is special because of the landform, but it is otherwise sort of a stupid hole.

I agree with the first part, but don't really understand the "otherwise sort of a stupid hole".  I thought this hole took advantage of the landform to make a pretty good risk reward par 5.  If you lay up on the second, then the wind comes more in to play.  If you go for it, the obvious intimidation factor of the cliff is there.  How would you make it less of a stupid hole?

Agree with you completely. 6 is actually one of my favorite holes at Pebble.

And anyone who thinks 14 is a "mundane" hole? Wow, I just don't get that. The third shot on that hole alone elevates it well, well above mundane.

[David Ober]

I'll give you a hole by hole on a 1-10 scale rating keeping in mind this course is considered one of the very best in the world so the comparisons are with other world class courses.

1.   3:  one of the weaker opening holes of any great golf course
2.   5
3.   5:  I like offset fairways, but there were too many trees on the corner when I played.  Take those down (maybe they are down) and  it would be a bit better, say a 7
4.   5
5.   I have not played the redesign
6.   7:  now it starts getting very good
7.   9
8.   10
9.   8
10.  6 not differentiated from 9 enough for me, so it loses points
11.  4
12.  5
13.  5
14.  7:  it would be lower but for the green, it is excellent
15.  4
16.  8:  there's something about this hole that really appeals to me
17.  6
18.  7:  technology has hurt this hole for the average to low handicap player

I agree with Terry that there are too many weaknesses for this to be a top 10 American course and might well be near the bottom of my top 25, if I had one 

Wayne,

Some of those ratings are low.  I dont understand why holes like #4, 10, 12, and 18 aren't great holes to you.

I disagree about technology hurting 18 for the better player.  If anything, it adds to the hole by giving the player a shot at going for the green in two.

I think 6 is one of the more superb par-5's I've ever played.

I also believe #7 is a 10 as well, same with 18.  Those along with #8 would be my three 10's on the course by your scale.


Terry,

I'll hold up, but I strongly, strongly disagree.
Your comment on #6 is a strange one.  It's like saying the other ocean holes are 'stupid without the ocean'.  Face it, that landform is an essential part to the design of the hole.  The tee shot is good, downhill and you have to challenge the bunker to get a big kick forward to go for it in two.  The second shot is incredible, whether you lay-up or go for it.  If you go for it the shot is so good and intense because you pick a target and just let loose.  If you lay up, the bunkers on the left guard the best angle.  The hole itself is highly original and is amazing.  To label it stupid without the landofrm, is stupid in itself.

I understand not liking 1 or 15, but #'s 2, 13, and 14 are great.
16 has amazing bunkering and the strategy is evident - what a great hole.
17 and 18 are both amazing, and you still can't take away the ocean.  Both are great holes.

Another lover of number six! Huzzah!! Same here, Jordan. 6 and 14 are both GREAT par 5's in my opinion.

[David_Elvins]

For those who love it, where would you place it in world ranking?

Andrew,

We seem to have fairly similar tastes in golf courses however based on what courses I have seen, I would think Pebble deserves a top 10 ranking.

I was expecting, having read the opinions of you, Doak etc to not like the course but I really liked it.

I really liked seeing the small greens and how they were used strategically, especially on the cliff top holes and holes 3, 11, and 14.  The "poor holes" were nowhere near as poor as I had anticipated, and the good holes were good.  

The only thing that really holds the course back is the 8 different styles of bunkering on the course.  Truly horrible and a disgrace that such an influential course is setting such a poor standard.

[David Ober]

Jordan:  #4 is just a routine uphill muni hole with a pond on the right.  The green isn't very special and neither is the bunkering.  These holes exist everywhere.  It's almost Jans-like in its simplicity.  A big part of the greatness of Pebble is that virtually every par 4  bends a little.  The course begs you to carve your ball around.  Heck, even #15 promotes a draw.  #4 just plays dead straight and is kindof boring.

That's why I like it.

[Wayne Freeman]

Jordan-  I'm with you all the way. The first time I played Pebble Beach I was 17 and we were able to play 45 holes walking for $25.  What a thrill!   I had a letter from Eddie Merrins at Bel-Air where I caddied and I made the most of it.  Forty years haven't changed my initial impression in any way.  To me, Pebble is magic and I'm sick and tired of all the negativity you hear about the golf course.  Who out there wouldn't want to hit their last drive on the 18th hole after soaking it all in sitting on the fence there on the tee box.  How does that walk from 6 to the 7th tee and then playing that fantastic wedge shot ( or punching a 6 iron which I had to do my last visit there) get any better? And is there a more thrilling second shot in golf that on the 8th?
   To me,  PB is like a great piano concerto.  It builds slowly in the first movement (5 holes),  then hits the high drama in holes 6-10.  As you move away from the ocean,  the slow 2nd movement starts and meanders beautifully thru 15.  Then as the ocean appears again on 17 the rapid 3rd movement begins until it climaxes against the crashing sea in what has to be one of the most beautiful finishes on 18 green.


. 
     

[Andrew Summerell]

For those who love it, where would you place it in world ranking?

Andrew,

We seem to have fairly similar tastes in golf courses however based on what courses I have seen, I would think Pebble deserves a top 10 ranking.

I was expecting, having read the opinions of you, Doak etc to not like the course but I really liked it.

I really liked seeing the small greens and how they were used strategically, especially on the cliff top holes and holes 3, 11, and 14.  The "poor holes" were nowhere near as poor as I had anticipated, and the good holes were good. 

The only thing that really holds the course back is the 8 different styles of bunkering on the course.  Truly horrible and a disgrace that such an influential course is setting such a poor standard.

I didn’t say I hated it, but from the other top courses I have played around the world, I personably believe it is ranked a little higher than it should be.

For instance, do you believe it is better architecturally than Royal Melbourne (West) ?

[Bob_Huntley]

Jordan-  I'm with you all the way. The first time I played Pebble Beach I was 17 and we were able to play 45 holes walking for $25.  What a thrill!   I had a letter from Eddie Merrins at Bel-Air where I caddied and I made the most of it.  Forty years haven't changed my initial impression in any way.  To me, Pebble is magic and I'm sick and tired of all the negativity you hear about the golf course.  Who out there wouldn't want to hit their last drive on the 18th hole after soaking it all in sitting on the fence there on the tee box.  How does that walk from 6 to the 7th tee and then playing that fantastic wedge shot ( or punching a 6 iron which I had to do my last visit there) get any better? And is there a more thrilling second shot in golf that on the 8th?
   To me,  PB is like a great piano concerto.  It builds slowly in the first movement (5 holes),  then hits the high drama in holes 6-10.  As you move away from the ocean,  the slow 2nd movement starts and meanders beautifully thru 15.  Then as the ocean appears again on 17 the rapid 3rd movement begins until it climaxes against the crashing sea in what has to be one of the most beautiful finishes on 18 green.


. 
     

Wayne,

I have come to your post a little late. I like what you say and I can see that you enjoy playing golf and appreciate what is good in any course.

I believe great courses are rather like women, no two are the same and what stikes a chord in me may well leave someone else cold. I do remember as a teenager seeing Ingrid Bergman in 'For Whom the Bell Tolls', I didn't know at the time whether I should want her as a mother or lover. To rate women and courses on a numerical basis is folly indeed. Although come to think of it , Bo Derek was certainly a ten.

Bob

[Mark_F]

I really liked seeing the small greens and how they were used strategically, especially on the cliff top holes and holes 3, 11, and 14.  

David,

Care to expand a little more on this?

Thanks.

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