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Jordan Wall

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Pebble Beach
« on: April 28, 2008, 03:37:51 AM »
Yes, I understand I just got home from a great trip, and yes I realize I may still be running a bit on adrenaline, but after playing Pebble Beach I have a few inquiries.


First off, anyone who says that Pebble is just an average course with great views is completely on crack (or some drug).  Pebble Beach utilizes the ocean so well, I just found it incredible how anyone would even talk of evaluating the course 'without the ocean' (and what the hell does that mean anyways?).  Each hole which runs along the ocean uses the ocean as part of the strategy of the hole.  On four, it guards left pins, on five it makes the player bail left, on six it makes you challenge the bunker on the tee shot, on seven a slight miss is in the Pacific....on and on and on.
It was also interesting to note how the ocean was used to sort of, open up other holes.  Holes like #'s 11, 13, and 14 all are wide open on the left to afford views of the ocean.  If it were not for the ocean being there, and being an integral part of the course, those holes very well might have trees hugging the left side of the fairway, and to me that would just take away so much from those holes.  The wide expanses between holes was just spectacular to me.

The greens at Pebble were as tiny as everyone said.  I couldn't believe holes like 4 or 5, or 11 where the greens were like a big pitch and putt course.  It was incredible how tiny those greens were, and the precision required to get to some of the holes.

The bunkering at the course blew me away.  I dont get how someone can call #2 a bad hole.  That ravine bunker in front of the green is spectacular, just as the fairway bunkers.  The greenside bunkers angle the green so the left fairway bunkers need to be challenged to have any chance of going for right pins.  On 16, there was another ravine bunker and it was perhaps my favorite bunker I have ever seen.  It just sort of creeped its way through the valley.  Those were two specific holes that really shoot out to me, but overall I thought the bunkering was fantastic (minus the new additions beyond the third fairway).

Pebble really needs to work on how they present some of the bunkers.  John will probably post a picture of the bunker left of 6 fairway, but a few of the bunkers were dotted with these little grass clumps and were just ugly.  It was like reverse eye candy.  Standing on 14 fairway I look down 6, and the bunkers on top are pristine and beautiful, but the fairway bunker looks like salt and pepper - definitely weird.

Lastly, I thought Pebble was amazing.  Say what you want - I know I haven't gotten to play many of the golf courses some on this site have, but I know a good golf course when I see one.  Pebble is fantastic.  I think it gets nitpicked too much, over little things.  Bottom line is that no course will be perfect and Pebble Beach is damn good.  Walking down 18 in the sunset was as much as a dream come true as a I ever could have had at my age.

Thanks again Bob and John.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2008, 03:43:20 AM by Jordan Wall »

John Mayhugh

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Re: Pebble Beach
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2008, 07:32:23 AM »
Jordan's not alone.  I was thrilled with Pebble.  Here's a pic of #6 from the tee.  I also wish they would get rid of the clumps of grass around the bunkers, but it's tough for me to criticize it too much.  Gotta look at the whole picture and it's a great course.  And the ocean/beach does come into play.


The 6th hole was even more uphill than I realized.  I really like this shot of Jordan waiting for the green to clear for his approach.


Playing with Bob & Jordan made it a really special day.  I loved the walk up 18, but really hated that the round was over.

David Ober

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Re: Pebble Beach
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2008, 09:46:27 AM »
Jordan,

I'm 100% with you. When I finally got to play Pebble two years ago, I was absolutely blown away.

Glad you had fun. :-)

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2008, 09:51:37 AM »
Jordan, I agree with your feeelings about Pebble. While we we all like to debate the holes of a course and it's merits (or deficiencies), I find it incredible when I hear Pebble take a verbal beating from some because "some of it's inland holes aren't very good", or, "if it wasn't for the ocean.....". Pebble is an experience that every golfer should have at least once in their lives. It is truly very, very special. I'm glad the 3 of you got to play it.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tom Huckaby

Re: Pebble Beach
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2008, 09:58:06 AM »
Paging Mr. Mucci... Mr. Patrick Mucci...

#6 is no big deal guys.  None of that blue stuff off to the right exists.  It's a sorry blind hole.

That's Mucci talking, of course.

I am right with you all on Pebble Beach.  I have never understood the criticisms of it.  It is one of our nation's treasures without a doubt, to me anyway.  I'm sure the critics will hit on this thread soon enough though.  Jordan, just don't listen - they don't get it.

TH

Tom_Doak

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Re: Pebble Beach
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2008, 09:58:25 AM »
Jordan:

Nobody here that I can remember has ever said that it isn't a beautiful place, or a great golf experience, or that it doesn't have some of the great holes in the world.  And I agree with you that arguing about what it would be like without the ocean is pointless.

However, most of the arguments start up when someone insists Pebble is THE BEST course in the world.

tlavin

Re: Pebble Beach
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2008, 10:25:21 AM »
Pebble is beautiful.  Pebble has scenery and history that's tough to beat.  It has a string of holes (6-10) that are really special and a couple others that are quite good.

Having said that, there are at least four or five holes that are well beyond mundane.  Further, the maintenance practices at the resort have taken a lot of the natural beauty out of the course itself and the overall experience at the resort pales in comparison to Bandon or Pinehurst, IMHO.  Pebble is something that every golfer should try to experience at least once, but it's vastly overranked by many, principally because of the eye-popping oceanside holes and the vaunted history.

Tom Huckaby

Re: Pebble Beach
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2008, 10:32:10 AM »
Tom Doak:

I don't think that's true.  I don't think even Pebble's most ardent admires (and I consider myself one of them) ever trumpeted it as the #1 best course on this planet, or in this nation.  I know I haven't.  So no, the arguments don't start there... my recollection is the arguments start when their detractors call it on the whole "mundane", or "over-rated" or the like.

Terry Lavin:

We've been down this road too many times before.  I so completely disagree with much of what you wrote that it's best to just leave it as is... some things are not meant to be discussed.   ;D

TH

Jordan Wall

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Re: Pebble Beach
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2008, 10:42:58 AM »
Terry,

I'd like to know the 4 or 5 holes that are well beyond mundane.
Thanks.

Bob_Huntley

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Re: Pebble Beach
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2008, 10:47:02 AM »
Yes, I understand I just got home from a great trip, and yes I realize I may still be running a bit on adrenaline, but after playing Pebble Beach I have a few inquiries.


First off, anyone who says that Pebble is just an average course with great views is completely on crack (or some drug). 

Lastly, I thought Pebble was amazing.  Say what you want - I know I haven't gotten to play many of the golf courses some on this site have, but I know a good golf course when I see one.  Pebble is fantastic.  I think it gets nitpicked too much, over little things.  Bottom line is that no course will be perfect and Pebble Beach is damn good.  Walking down 18 in the sunset was as much as a dream come true as a I ever could have had at my age.

Thanks again Bob and John.


Jordan,

You have just graduated from GCA University with honors.

Glad you had a good time.

Bob H.

tlavin

Re: Pebble Beach
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2008, 10:51:55 AM »
Huck:

This kind of chatter, of course, is personal opinion bloviating.  I have an advanced degree in the topic, so I'm always ready to spout off.  I can understand how an admirer of PB could overlook some of the mutt holes in the routing, because they occur in the beginning and in the middle of the course, but there are simply too many average holes for me to put Pebble in the Top Ten.  It's surely in my personal Top 25, but there are too many courses that only have one or two so-so holes that rank above PB.  To each, their own!

tlavin

Re: Pebble Beach
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2008, 10:56:40 AM »
Terry,

I'd like to know the 4 or 5 holes that are well beyond mundane.
Thanks.

#1, #2, #13, #14, #15 come to mind.

#6 is special because of the landform, but it is otherwise sort of a stupid hole.

#16 is average at best, but not mundane.

#17 is an above average par-3 in most people's books, but it wouldn't be all that memorable if there was a fence and a thoroughfare behind it instead of the Pacific Ocean.

#18, like the rest of the course, has been discussed ad nauseum and I don't wish to further pillory the great finishing hole on the MP Shrine, but suffice it to say that it isn't much better than the finisher at Harbour Town.


wsmorrison

Re: Pebble Beach
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2008, 11:00:01 AM »
I'll give you a hole by hole on a 1-10 scale rating keeping in mind this course is considered one of the very best in the world so the comparisons are with other world class courses.

1.   3:  one of the weaker opening holes of any great golf course
2.   5
3.   5:  I like offset fairways, but there were too many trees on the corner when I played.  Take those down (maybe they are down) and  it would be a bit better, say a 7
4.   5
5.   I have not played the redesign
6.   7:  now it starts getting very good
7.   9
8.   10
9.   8
10.  6 not differentiated from 9 enough for me, so it loses points
11.  4
12.  5
13.  5
14.  7:  it would be lower but for the green, it is excellent
15.  4
16.  8:  there's something about this hole that really appeals to me
17.  6
18.  7:  technology has hurt this hole for the average to low handicap player

I agree with Terry that there are too many weaknesses for this to be a top 10 American course and might well be near the bottom of my top 25, if I had one  ;)
« Last Edit: April 28, 2008, 11:03:19 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Tom Huckaby

Re: Pebble Beach
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2008, 11:03:18 AM »
Terry - that's cool by me.  Heck, Personal Top 25 still works.  Others have not even granted it that, and that's what gets my eyebrows raised.

Wayne:  for shame.  You of all people ought to have a doctorate in "Advanced Avoidance of Rehashing the Same Arguments Over and Over Again."  I'll give you a pass this time; you obviously have other issues on your mind.

So I'll just say you're a darn tough grader, and leave it at that.

TH

Steve Pozaric

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Re: Pebble Beach
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2008, 11:07:28 AM »

#6 is special because of the landform, but it is otherwise sort of a stupid hole.



I agree with the first part, but don't really understand the "otherwise sort of a stupid hole".  I thought this hole took advantage of the landform to make a pretty good risk reward par 5.  If you lay up on the second, then the wind comes more in to play.  If you go for it, the obvious intimidation factor of the cliff is there.  How would you make it less of a stupid hole?

Steve Pozaric

Bob_Huntley

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Re: Pebble Beach
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2008, 11:27:31 AM »
Terry,

Who pissed you off so on your last trip to Pebble Beach?  :)

Bob

Jordan Wall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2008, 11:29:12 AM »
I'll give you a hole by hole on a 1-10 scale rating keeping in mind this course is considered one of the very best in the world so the comparisons are with other world class courses.

1.   3:  one of the weaker opening holes of any great golf course
2.   5
3.   5:  I like offset fairways, but there were too many trees on the corner when I played.  Take those down (maybe they are down) and  it would be a bit better, say a 7
4.   5
5.   I have not played the redesign
6.   7:  now it starts getting very good
7.   9
8.   10
9.   8
10.  6 not differentiated from 9 enough for me, so it loses points
11.  4
12.  5
13.  5
14.  7:  it would be lower but for the green, it is excellent
15.  4
16.  8:  there's something about this hole that really appeals to me
17.  6
18.  7:  technology has hurt this hole for the average to low handicap player

I agree with Terry that there are too many weaknesses for this to be a top 10 American course and might well be near the bottom of my top 25, if I had one  ;)

Wayne,

Some of those ratings are low.  I dont understand why holes like #4, 10, 12, and 18 aren't great holes to you.

I disagree about technology hurting 18 for the better player.  If anything, it adds to the hole by giving the player a shot at going for the green in two.

I think 6 is one of the more superb par-5's I've ever played.

I also believe #7 is a 10 as well, same with 18.  Those along with #8 would be my three 10's on the course by your scale.


Terry,

I'll hold up, but I strongly, strongly disagree.
Your comment on #6 is a strange one.  It's like saying the other ocean holes are 'stupid without the ocean'.  Face it, that landform is an essential part to the design of the hole.  The tee shot is good, downhill and you have to challenge the bunker to get a big kick forward to go for it in two.  The second shot is incredible, whether you lay-up or go for it.  If you go for it the shot is so good and intense because you pick a target and just let loose.  If you lay up, the bunkers on the left guard the best angle.  The hole itself is highly original and is amazing.  To label it stupid without the landofrm, is stupid in itself.

I understand not liking 1 or 15, but #'s 2, 13, and 14 are great.
16 has amazing bunkering and the strategy is evident - what a great hole.
17 and 18 are both amazing, and you still can't take away the ocean.  Both are great holes.

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2008, 11:52:41 AM »
I'll give you a hole by hole on a 1-10 scale rating keeping in mind this course is considered one of the very best in the world so the comparisons are with other world class courses.

1.   3:  one of the weaker opening holes of any great golf course
2.   5
3.   5:  I like offset fairways, but there were too many trees on the corner when I played.  Take those down (maybe they are down) and  it would be a bit better, say a 7
4.   5
5.   I have not played the redesign
6.   7:  now it starts getting very good
7.   9
8.   10
9.   8
10.  6 not differentiated from 9 enough for me, so it loses points
11.  4
12.  5
13.  5
14.  7:  it would be lower but for the green, it is excellent
15.  4
16.  8:  there's something about this hole that really appeals to me
17.  6
18.  7:  technology has hurt this hole for the average to low handicap player

I agree with Terry that there are too many weaknesses for this to be a top 10 American course and might well be near the bottom of my top 25, if I had one  ;)

 
I disagree about technology hurting 18 for the better player.  If anything, it adds to the hole by giving the player a shot at going for the green in two.

 
 
 


I agree with Wayne about 16. There is something about that hole I truly love. Ocean or not, that is one of the best holes on the course, IMHO.



I also agree with Jordan's atke on 18. If anything, technology has enhanced that hole, especially for a player like Jordan. That is a second shot wrought with a danger.


13 has a fantastic green, IMHO.

14 is really good par 5.

15 is mediocre and I don't like the new bunkering there.


1 is a very mediocre opening hole for a great course. Having said that, I don't think there are quite as many weak holes there as some have suggested. It's certainly not the best course in the world IMO, but if some think so, I can't say they are flat out wrong either.

"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

tlavin

Re: Pebble Beach
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2008, 12:01:20 PM »
I'll give you a hole by hole on a 1-10 scale rating keeping in mind this course is considered one of the very best in the world so the comparisons are with other world class courses.

1.   3:  one of the weaker opening holes of any great golf course
2.   5
3.   5:  I like offset fairways, but there were too many trees on the corner when I played.  Take those down (maybe they are down) and  it would be a bit better, say a 7
4.   5
5.   I have not played the redesign
6.   7:  now it starts getting very good
7.   9
8.   10
9.   8
10.  6 not differentiated from 9 enough for me, so it loses points
11.  4
12.  5
13.  5
14.  7:  it would be lower but for the green, it is excellent
15.  4
16.  8:  there's something about this hole that really appeals to me
17.  6
18.  7:  technology has hurt this hole for the average to low handicap player

I agree with Terry that there are too many weaknesses for this to be a top 10 American course and might well be near the bottom of my top 25, if I had one  ;)

Wayne,

Some of those ratings are low.  I dont understand why holes like #4, 10, 12, and 18 aren't great holes to you.

I disagree about technology hurting 18 for the better player.  If anything, it adds to the hole by giving the player a shot at going for the green in two.

I think 6 is one of the more superb par-5's I've ever played.

I also believe #7 is a 10 as well, same with 18.  Those along with #8 would be my three 10's on the course by your scale.


Terry,

I'll hold up, but I strongly, strongly disagree.
Your comment on #6 is a strange one.  It's like saying the other ocean holes are 'stupid without the ocean'.  Face it, that landform is an essential part to the design of the hole.  The tee shot is good, downhill and you have to challenge the bunker to get a big kick forward to go for it in two.  The second shot is incredible, whether you lay-up or go for it.  If you go for it the shot is so good and intense because you pick a target and just let loose.  If you lay up, the bunkers on the left guard the best angle.  The hole itself is highly original and is amazing.  To label it stupid without the landofrm, is stupid in itself.

I understand not liking 1 or 15, but #'s 2, 13, and 14 are great.
16 has amazing bunkering and the strategy is evident - what a great hole.
17 and 18 are both amazing, and you still can't take away the ocean.  Both are great holes.

In terms of 6, the landform itself is not particularly well suited for golf, in my opinion.  Having said that, it is so spectacular and sets the table for the following holes so well that I include it in the very good holes of the course.

In terms of 17 and 18, like the rest of the course, you can't "take away the ocean" as you state, but one can still analyze the holes and see if the underlying design would be all that special if they weren't by the ocean.  That is not the be all and end all, but it surely is a worthy point of making an argument.  Having said that, if you read my post, you'll see that I didn't include those two holes on the mundane list, principally because you can't take away from the eye candy.

At the end of the day, this is all a relatively worthless exercise that has been done before.

I'm glad you enjoyed Pebble.  I don't know anybody who doesn't enjoy it.  But I know plenty of people who don't feel the need to revisit it all that often.  Part of it is the cost, part of it is the dull holes, part of it is the bad attitude of the employees, but the allure of Pebble has worn a little thin with me after playing it ten or so times.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2008, 12:11:04 PM »
Question:  Can very small greens be exceptional or do they have to be at least average in size to have sufficient contouring that they would be considerred execptional?  Are the greens at PB so small that they are not interesting and if that is the case, then should that lower the overall rating of the course?

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2008, 12:23:20 PM »
In terms of 6, the landform itself is not particularly well suited for golf, in my opinion.  Having said that, it is so spectacular and sets the table for the following holes so well that I include it in the very good holes of the course.

I'm glad you enjoyed Pebble.  I don't know anybody who doesn't enjoy it.  But I know plenty of people who don't feel the need to revisit it all that often.  Part of it is the cost, part of it is the dull holes, part of it is the bad attitude of the employees, but the allure of Pebble has worn a little thin with me after playing it ten or so times.
Terry,
The thrill of the climb up 6, in anticipation of what is coming next, is part of what makes the hole so great.  I understand your comment about the landform, but it certainly works well in this case.

I just have to comment on the attitude of the employees.  EVERYONE we interacted with was great.  While playing Spyglass in the morning, we talked ourselves into trying to complete the exacta.  Pebble was booked solid, but Jordan talked to a really great guy in the shop & told them about how special the trip was to him and the Evans scholarship and they found a way to get us out.  What an amazing day of golf, and credit has to go to the Pebble staff that made it happen for us.

Now $11/beer in the Tap Room.....that's a different story.

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2008, 12:31:24 PM »
I'm trying to figure out why I'm sitting here reading GCA threads when I just got off the rede-eye 90 minutes ago.  I'm glad to know John is doing the same.

Jerry - I thought #14 at Pebble was one of the best examples of a very small green that I would consider exceptional.  I liked the greens better at several of the other courses I played this weekend, but I was blown away by a few of the tiny ones at Pebble Beach.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2008, 01:01:52 PM »
Tim: You said #14 is an exceptional small green but there are many others at PB and if you don't consider them exceptional does that disqualify the course from being exceptional?  PB is often rated as one of the best in the US, if not the world, and is that a legitimate rating if the greens are less than exceptional?  All of the other top rated courses I've played have exceptional greens.

Adam Clayman

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Re: Pebble Beach
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2008, 01:14:33 PM »
Jordan, Don't get caught up in this hole by hole rating of the golf course.
 Or for that matter, any GC.
 #15 is now the step child. Altered from it's breather status illustrates the detriments of doing hole by hole analysis. The changes there, and to number 3, show a total disregard, or ignorance, in understanding of what makes a great course so. 

BTW #3 was commented on by the good Doctor.

Also, There was an old match on TGC yesterday showing Pebble in either the late fifties or early sixties. PAlmer and Player v. Nelson and Venturi (I think) Palmer and Player got waxed. Seeing the old number five (they hit 5 irons) sure as shootin looked better than that new number 5 and the houses it has wrought.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Pebble Beach
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2008, 01:47:52 PM »
I think 1, 2, 4 and 15 are mediocre. 

14 is one of the most amazing par 5s I know of.   The green makes a good hole great, IMO.

13 green is a real tester.  I like that hole, particularly becuase it's uphill and clubbing makes for a tough decision -- the difficulty of this decision is accentuated by the slope of the green.  Actually, this same logic applies to 14 green, too.

I think 3 is really cool.  I don't think it's weak at all. 
Let me be the first to compliment Shivas on the name change to Sybil.  I thoroughly enjoyed both of our rounds together and can attest to his multiple golf game personalities.  Honestly, I've never seen anything quite like the gap between good and bad shots that he displayed.  But what I'll remember most is the loud laugh that accompanied some of those less than satisfying shots.

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