[Geoffrey_Walsh]

I realize some people scroll over older threads because they don't have the time or the interest to catch up on what has been discussed.  However, I thought this might be of interest to a broader audience than the Cobb's Creek thread because it is an example of a GCA thread crossing over into a grassroots call for action.  This article is in today's Philadelphia Inquirer:

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/sports/20080427_With_a_little_help_from_a_few_friends.html

[Gene Greco]

    This is surely got to be one of the most satisfying stories a member of this website and a lover of golf history/golf archirecture will read and continue to follow.

Congratulations Mike, Joe, Geoff et al.

[Rich Goodale]

Gene

My only argument with your post is my belief that this is THE most important and satisfying thing ever accomplished on GCA.com.  Keep up the great work, Mike and all you other FOCCers.

Rich

[Craig Sweet]

Wow! Great work...important work.  No one is going to save/preserve/restore these courses but us...people that care. 

I know there are many GCA'ers that feel it is not their place to criticize what a membership does to its course, but I feel there needs to be a bit of militancy inside and outside private clubs....much as there is in the historic preservation of buildings....and hopefully, eventually, funds for restoration and preservation of historic old courses....both public and private.

[Jeff Doerr]

Kudos to Mike and all! Great potential fruit from our oft seemingly fruitless discussions.

[Joel_Stewart]

Its a fantastic article and even greater effort by all.   How much money is needed?

[Mike_Cirba]

Thanks everyone for your kind words and feedback.   We're hoping that this wonderful article gets the word out to a larger audience and provides a springboard for additional momentum and subsequent concrete steps.

Joel, we don't quite know yet, but we believe that it should be modest, as most of the work required to return the couse to it's original routing involves reclaiming abandoned avenues of play that have overgrown.   

We intend as one of our next steps to get out there with some architectural professionals so that we can ballpark it more accurately.

[Andrew Mitchell]

An excellent article giving deserved praise to the wonderful work you & your team have done Mike.  Congratulations.

[Mark_Fine]

Just an FYI, there is a CA group that Forrest and I are working with that is aware of this course and has already had meetings with the organization that will manage the property.  Money is not the issue for this organization.  It is more the politics and if all that gets sorted, the course restoration work will get addressed.

[Mike_Cirba]

Just an FYI, there is a CA group that Forrest and I are working with that is aware of this course and has already had meetings with the organization that will manage the property.  Money is not the issue for this organization.  It is more the politics and if all that gets sorted, the course restoration work will get addressed.

Mark,

I think it's very important to make this very clear to everyone concerned;

A contract has not yet been signed between Billy Casper Golf and Fairmount Park Commission.

NO ARCHITECT or architects have been selected by anyone, and all of the discussion to date is VERY preliminary.

Although BCG and FPC seem certainly open to any and all funding sources, they also have concerns about any funding sources that would tie their hands in any decision pre-or-post restoration that they feel is their perview and responsibility to make.


I don't think this public jockeying for position serves any purpose for the greater good of this effort, frankly, and am disappointed that this has come up in this context.

[RJ_Daley]

Congratulations on this public recognition of the efforts FOCC have made. 

How is FOCC pronounced? Like in the Irish caddie dialect, 'whale oil be FOCC'd?   

Mike, I'm sending you an IM with an idea... considering your "frankly" concerns...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike, Geoff, Joe, et. al.,

Congratulations on your efforts to date.

There's nothing like pursuing a labor of love.

Let us know how the story unfolds and what assistance you may need.

Your efforts are inspiring, and hopefully, will be the map for others to follow.

Good luck.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Maybe you should ask my guitar hero Eric Clapton for a donation.

I just checked a concert ticket link on the link to the Cobbs Creek Article - best ticket on the floor at the Borgata Center for the Clapton Concert - a cool $500.-

Best of luck with your project - 120'000 rounds a year in 1929 will be a hard act to follow.

[Mark_Fine]

MPC,
Maybe I misunderstood your post but there is no jockeying for position.  We are all trying to do something good for the game of golf.  Mike Cirba for example is well aware of what is happening (he introduced us) and is excited about it.  He and I have exchanged numerous emails and spoken on the phone. 

As an FYI - The group Forrest and I are working for is called Keep It Classic (just incorporated in the last six months or so).  Their mission is as follows:

"To restore and preserve classic municipal golf courses in the United States to their historical significnace in line with today's golf technology and to promote more traditional golf ethics to children."

This is a non-profit 501(c)(7) corporation that is purely philanthropic in their intentions.  Cobbs Creek happens to be one of many of our targeted courses.  If someone else or some other group comes in and raises (and gifts) $2MM or $3MM or what ever it takes to do the work, great!  Go for it!  We all win!  There are plenty of courses that will be lining up to take our money.  Again this is just getting going and you'll hear more very soon about some upcoming projects.

Mark

[Joe Bausch]

MPC,
Maybe I misunderstood your post but there is no jockeying for position.  We are all trying to do something good for the game of golf.  Mike Cirba for example is well aware of what is happening (he introduced us) and is excited about it.  He and I have exchanged numerous emails and spoken on the phone. 

As an FYI - The group Forrest and I are working for is called Keep It Classic (just incorporated in the last six months or so).  Their mission is as follows:

"To restore and preserve classic municipal golf courses in the United States to their historical significnace in line with today's golf technology and to promote more traditional golf ethics to children."

This is a non-profit 501(c)(7) corporation that is purely philanthropic in their intentions.  Cobbs Creek happens to be one of many of our targeted courses.  If someone else or some other group comes in and raises (and gifts) $2MM or $3MM or what ever it takes to do the work, great!  Go for it!  We all win!  There are plenty of courses that will be lining up to take our money.  Again this is just getting going and you'll hear more very soon about some upcoming projects.

Mark

Earth to Mark Fine, earth to Mark Fine! 

MPC is Mike Cirba.  I'm trying to figure out how what he wrote in his last reply on this topic matches up with what you just wrote about the communications you might have had.  Ahhh, never mind... this sounds too complicated for my simple brain. 

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

Is there a requirement that if Keep It Classic raises the money for a municipal club project, that the design group is designated by them?  Please keep this transparent.  Is this a mechanism whereby architect groups, such as Forrest and you, that are allied with Keep It Classic get the work?

[Mark_Fine]

Joe,
I told you I might have misunderstood the post    Maybe MPC (Mike) can explain what he meant by jockeying for position.  My post still stands as far as what we are trying to do.
Mark

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

Be so kind as to answer my question in post #15.  I am very wary of conflicts that may arise if an organization is structured in a way that has built in consultants/architects.  I think it is important that the structure and model be fully disclosed.  Since you brought it up, I hope you will answer the question.

[Dan Herrmann]

Mike, Geoff, Joe, et. al.,

Congratulations on your efforts to date.

There's nothing like pursuing a labor of love.

Let us know how the story unfolds and what assistance you may need.

Your efforts are inspiring, and hopefully, will be the map for others to follow.

Good luck.

Amen to that!  I was lucky enough to spend a couple of hours with Mike Cirba last week, and his passion for doing the right thing is apparent.

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
It is a pretty simple and very exciting concept; Keep It Classic is a California Non-Profit Public Benefit Corporation that was formed to restore public access and municipal golf courses that have some historical significance, are in disrepair, would likely never get the money to make the capital improvements, and can impact lots of golfers/the game of golf in a positive manner.  As you can imagine there are dozens and dozens of courses like this around the country in need of help.  

Forrest and I are much more than as you say "built in consultants/architects".  In addition to golf architecture, we both bring extensive background in business management, have worked extensively with non-profit organizations, and are partners in the corporation.   As such, we have been involved since near inception supporting the organization with the development of their corporate structure, marketing approach, corporate vision/mission statements, target properties, industry introductions, etc. etc.  In addition, Forrest and I will direct all the corporation's restoration and renovation efforts.  Let's take an example - a municipal course in Ohio completes a "request for funding" to Keep It Classic (in some ways it is like they are asking for a grant from the USGA).  We will review the request, make visits to evaluate the course/property and work with the course management to determine what level of funding is required to restore/renovate the golf course.  The request for funding along with our proposed plan/cost estimate will be presented to Keep It Classic's board.  If approved and we decide for example to provide $3MM to restore/renovate the golf course, it will be our job to oversee the spending of Keep It Classic's money.  We DO NOT provide the $3MM to the municipality.  We provide the improved golf course and gift all the work and capital improvements to them upon its completion.  On one of our projects, we will be partnering with Bill Kubly.  Bill is as you know, it CEO of Landscapes Unlimited.  We will commission his firm to handle the construction work of this particular project and we will provide all the direction/design work.  As I said, when the work is completed, the improvements will be gifted back to the municipality along with a proposed maintenance plan for its upkeep.  

Pretty cool huh  

Mark  

[wsmorrison]

Pretty cool huh

Potentially, but not necessarily.  I don't think this is as simple nor as altruistic as you lead on.  Control should lie with the city, the management company and the end uses.  Your model comes across as a turnkey operation with one architect/consultant group even though you have management background and worked extensively with non-profits.  I don't really see how that differentiates you from a host of other architecture firms.  The fact that you are partners in the corporation is a huge negative in my mind with conflicts galore.

What if the city, management company and players disagree with the way you and Forrest decide the restoration or remodeling should go?  Who has final decision making on design, project timeline and other matters?  Because the foundation is in partnership with you and donates the money for the project, as a partner you automatically get the job (and being paid a fee) as well as designating the construction team.   The owners, operators and players seem squeezed out of the process.  Yet you don't see the conflicts and limitations involved in that model?  That is surprising from someone that has an extensive background in business management.   

I think a better model for this particular project, if it can be arranged, is for the city and management company to arrange financing through private and public donations with the architectural work done pro bono.   The list of architects willing to do so is mighty impressive and they aren't beholding to one foundation but would be more closely allied with the needs of the city, the management company and the end users.  I fail to see how your model incorporates these participants that are there when you leave for the next job.  But then again, perhaps you haven't fully explained things. 

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
There are lots of models.  None are perfect.  All I can tell you is what ours is and that the organization is just starting and we are trying to do the right thing for golf courses that are in need of support.  If we need to change something as time goes or work with someone else or do something different we will adjust (just like any business).  But I will say this, we don't have a shortage of interested parties and I don't think we will. 

Our model is really not that complicated.  The courses we are looking at, 1)DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY, and 2)PROBABLY WOULDN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH IT IF THEY DID!  If they want our help (and our money), they need to work under our terms which happen to be very minimal (especially since they will likely be the ones asking for our money/support in the first place).  If they have a better option, no problem at all, they should do it.  Dan doesn't want any publicity and the donors will all or in many cases be anonymous.  We come in quietly and leave quietly.  The beneficiaries are the communities and the golfers who will freguent the golf course.  The real beauty is that they will likely have a multi-million dollar improvement project completed at NO COST to the owners/taxpayers.  One they would never have envisioned on their own.

Please find something positive in this 

[Mike_Young]

Wayne,
I posted the below to the other thread.....this is an old trick....been used with municipalities a few times before....and expect to see it more as construction slows....   Sorry for MCP that this type of BS has to detract from efforts.....

"Mark,
I also got in this business the unconventional way by not working for another archie ....BUT I worked in the business for 10 years learning it before getting a project.......I am all for someone pursuing their dream in this business.....what I am not for is all the bullshit that sometimes takes place on this site where one makes it look like one has all of this expertise and experience when it is not there.....I see that alot on here....or they create a website that doesnt hold water....I dont know you so I can't say if that is you or not ....   it is so easy to do when one can use a digital camera and can opine over the ODG courses and what they meant to do.....personally I don't consider one in this business until they have a few courses on the ground and can actually profit from such work.....the talk part of this website is cheap.....I continue to see different guys in all regions retire from one job and print a business card stating   golf architect, golf sales rep, golf pro etc all to be in the "business".....BUT if you do have a passion and can do this stuff then it will prevail.....I WILL also say that this "charitable save the municipal golf course" route has been used before.....it is a great marketing/sales tool that guys have tried to use to acquire projects.....a couple of more are in the works as we speak.....THATS ALL IT IS....A SALES TOOL... but it might work....
BUT my biggest question about many of your post is .....
What do you bring to the table for FR?  I have read all of these post but never could understand the reasoning....
Best of luck with your pursuit....."

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
As I said in the other thread, there are no tricks.  This is not a marketing scheme.  Maybe it is best to let this lie and see what happens over the coming year or so or as announcements are made and then we can talk about it.  Or maybe Forrest will chime in and give you his thoughts.  He's probably in bed already (which I should be) 
Mark

[John Foley]

Mike, Geoff, Joes and the rest of FOCC,

What a great work. All of you should be commended for some fantastic work.

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