[M. Shea Sweeney]

Jay Flemma-

They did modify the rule didn't they?

As someone who grew up playing golf at Eisenhower I would argue that the rule was put in place to increase rounds revenue.

And you know what, as much as I hate the rule, if it increases revenue and enables Nassau County to pour some cash (the little that they have) into the Blue and White, then good.

It costs money to run a golf course, I think people forget this sometimes. 

[Mike Hendren]

As to whether cartball is golf or carts are an aid, seems to me the USGA has resolved this issue by not inquiring whether one walked or rode when posting a score for handicap purposes.

She lets her walking do her talking.
She's a brilliant conversationalist.
- T. Graham Brown

[Kyle Harris]

Jay Flemma-

They did modify the rule didn't they?

As someone who grew up playing golf at Eisenhower I would argue that the rule was put in place to increase rounds revenue.

And you know what, as much as I hate the rule, if it increases revenue and enables Nassau County to pour some cash (the little that they have) into the Blue and White, then good.

It costs money to run a golf course, I think people forget this sometimes. 

Sometimes I think golf courses get so concerned with the revenue side, they forget to be smart on the spending side.

[Lou_Duran]

Kyle,

Can you develop in some detail the costs vs. revenues argument?  Are you in the golf business?

I do like pull carts, but abhor the thought of requiring them.  Why are some of us so bent in forcing our preferences on others?

A possible solution allowing walkers to repair their divots is a plastic tube filled with sand that can be clipped on the side of the bag.  It is about a third or fourth the size of those shag ball tubes.  I think it was at Fazio's Alderra club east of Seattle where I saw these.   With several refilling containers on the course, the system seemed to work well (though when the sand is wet, it is messy and more difficult).   

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

Can you develop in some detail the costs vs. revenues argument?  Are you in the golf business?

I do like pull carts, but abhor the thought of requiring them.  Why are some of us so bent in forcing our preferences on others?

A possible solution allowing walkers to repair their divots is a plastic tube filled with sand that can be clipped on the side of the bag.  It is about a third or fourth the size of those shag ball tubes.  I think it was at Fazio's Alderra club east of Seattle where I saw these.   With several refilling containers on the course, the system seemed to work well (though when the sand is wet, it is messy and more difficult).   

Lou,

I was a golf pro for 5 years and am currently in my 3rd year as a golf course assistant superintendent/intern.

Look around the course sometime and ask yourself how much a lot of the "extras" cost. I'll give you a lead - hazard stakes, if they aren't home made...

[Lou_Duran]

Kyle,

I was being serious.  With your experience, you likely have better insights than most.  It would be highly instructive for the rest of us if you could put some numbers to demonstrate your theory.

[Kyle Harris]

Lou,

Sorry for the curt reply, I wanted to post something and had to run off real quick. I'll try to get some "real" numbers tomorrow as I don't remember any of the top of my head, and I'm not directly responsible for ordering or purchasing yet.

Here are some examples:

How many ranges have you been to with one or more of these?
http://www.wittekgolf.com/product.asp?prid=129&prname=Pro+2000+Club+Cleaner&itemprc=210&cat=Range+Supplies&shp=False&rootCat=&secCat=Tee+Line+Equipment

I think we just bought boxes of stakes (24 per box) that ran in the order of $300 per box. That's over $10.00 per stake! They're high quality.... but wow.

Granite tee signs.... how much is granite as a building material?

A lot of these things are one off sorts of items, but many courses replace them on an annual basis. Factor in other things like cups, flagsticks, flags and all the other incidentals and this adds up quickly. When you're paying $10.00 for a hazard stake, and you use a couple hundred throughout the course, That's well over a thousand dollars a year spent on that, or in other terms, a day's labor for a golf course maintenance staff not counting the salaried positions.

I'll add the disclaimer that this is most likely to happen on the high end CCFAD type courses. Most country clubs, and their members, realize that they did not get to such success in other aspects of their life by spending exorbitant amounts of money on golf.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Kyle,

I totally agree with you. However in this case Eisenhower, even though I haven't played either of the courses in around 3 years--theres nothing extraordinary being purchased. Just your basic stuff- normal flags, signs with yaradage, and blue, white and red wooden yardage stakes.

The place most likely has the tightest budget on Long Island. I don't know if your familiar with Nassau County, but it hasn't been in the best financial condition in the past few years. They ratified the rule due to the clientel that plays the golf course, the same boys who sleep in their car for bethpage yellow.

I'm not really for golf carts--

However, they are keeping the game alive in many ways.

- They allow disabled, older, and injured golfers to continue playing the game.
- It makes drinking a hell of alot easier. Say what you want, but this will keep guys coming back if carts are available and inexpensive.
- The golf cart is a "fun factor" for some people. Believe it or not most people don't give a shit about the way the artificial mounding looks on 14.
- Most look at golf as a relaxing game. For some the 18 hole walk calms them down after a hard work week. Some like pulling a cart by themselves. And some like to  chill out, ride on cart , and play some golf.
-Gives the golfer the option to play a quick round of golf.
-Makes life easier for golfers to get around with their children.

 golf carts are neccessary for the game, business, and golfers.

Golf is a walking game, however like all things in life, they evolve.

[Kyle Harris]

MSS,

I'm not arguing the need for carts. Just an aside for your comment about running a golf course costing money.

[Peter Pallotta]

KBM, Lou -

Thanks. I hear what you're both saying, and I probably need to hear that perspective, maybe often.  And yet, I'm not so sure that a discussion of "shoulds" has to equate with either a loss of freedom/choice or an impractical/inflexible concept of acceptable architecture. It's a fine line to be sure; but I've always assumed that there are fundamental principles of good and enjoyable golf course architecture - and if that's the case, maybe just a few of the things we CAN do aren't things we SHOULD do...

And, from my (albeit limited) experience with newish golf courses that essentially have a MANDATORY cart policy, much of the enjoyment and the experience of the game tends to get lost, especially when a less-than-stellar or less-than-committed architect was involved - yes, I'm still hitting a ball with a stick as few times as possible, but...

Peter   

[Mike Golden]

In my 40 years of playing and observing golf I have concluded that the majority of walkers are either cheap or poorly employed.  I don't think they would take caddies at $20 a loop after the pinch on their precious wallets was felt.

Great observation, John, thanks for insulting every golfer who respects the tradition of the game and sees no need for a cart to help them recover from a hangover or simply being too out of shape to walk 18  holes.

[Kyle Harris]

In my 40 years of playing and observing golf I have concluded that the majority of walkers are either cheap or poorly employed.  I don't think they would take caddies at $20 a loop after the pinch on their precious wallets was felt.

Great observation, John, thanks for insulting every golfer who respects the tradition of the game and sees no need for a cart to help them recover from a hangover or simply being too out of shape to walk 18  holes.

I hope I'm not alone in thinking that the golf course should offer a product that will give me my green fee worth of satisfaction and utility.

That being said, I can't think of an experience with a golf cart where I've gotten the cart fee back in utility.

I'm cheap, but I'm also economical.

[Lou_Duran]

Oops!  This is not the Eisenhower course I thought it was.  The one with the cart elevator is in the City of Industry, CA.  I have no idea if the subject Eisenhower course is walkable or not.

[mike_beene]

Doesn't a one person slower cart cure the problem?Or have I been in Washington too long?

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Lou Duran-

It is walkable.

[Phil_the_Author]

Kyle,

You observed that, "Phil, Eisenhower Park was also built for the walker. No long green to tee treks..."

The three courses at Eisenhower are part of what was a five-course complex built from the teens to the twenties. Everyone walked then.

The point that I am trying to make, and one that I am certain that both Sweeney and Golden will agree with, is that the vast majority of those who play at Eisenhower Park are either older players (not necessarily elderly), less talented ladies and the less experienced. These

The talented public player of any age or gender will invariably choose to play 9 of 10 rounds at Bethpage.

Unless there have been dramatic changes in the last few years, Eisenhower Park is always a VERY slow and long day of play that is worse than comparable days at Bethpage.

Carts at Eisenhower not only don't slow things up, it is the exception to the "cartpaths only 90%" rule in that it actually speeds play up.

The reason for the carts only rule at Eisenhower is first and foremost a financial one as Sweeney already has stated...

[Jay Flemma]

Jay Flemma-

They did modify the rule didn't they?

As someone who grew up playing golf at Eisenhower I would argue that the rule was put in place to increase rounds revenue.

And you know what, as much as I hate the rule, if it increases revenue and enables Nassau County to pour some cash (the little that they have) into the Blue and White, then good.

It costs money to run a golf course, I think people forget this sometimes. 

Yes, but that starts the slippery slope and an anti-consumer one at that.  Remember, Hominy Hill charged full rate for a while with 14 temp greens and 6 temp tees.  There comes a point when that practice becomes predatory and simoniacal and in our "greed is good" societal mentality we let it go and let it go and let it go (the concept of getting the last dollar on the table) and end up ruining the game in the process.  Look at baseball.  Do you have ANY idea how expensive the new Yankee stadium will be?  What about Pebble?  It'll soon be $750 a round.  That's not a greens fee, that's a mortgage payment...or 1/3 a months rent for a Manhattan apartment.

Good to see you Sweeney.  You too, Kyle.

[Melvyn Morrow]

M. Shea Sweeney

Re your comment

I'm not really for golf carts--

However, they are keeping the game alive in many ways.
- They allow disabled, older, and injured golfers to continue playing the game.
- It makes drinking a hell of alot easier. Say what you want, but this will keep guys coming back if carts are available and inexpensive.
- The golf cart is a "fun factor" for some people. Believe it or not most people don't give a shit about the way the artificial mounding looks on 14.
- Most look at golf as a relaxing game. For some the 18 hole walk calms them down after a hard work week. Some like pulling a cart by themselves. And some like to  chill out, ride on cart , and play some golf.
-Gives the golfer the option to play a quick round of golf.
-Makes life easier for golfers to get around with their children.

 golf carts are neccessary for the game, business, and golfers.

Golf is a walking game, however like all things in life, they evolve.



An interesting comment, but let’s look at it in more depth.

I have always accepted that the old, disabled, injured should have access to a golf course.
I enjoy a drink or two, but at the 19th - not on the course and have seen my fair share of guys trying to play with too much beer inside them, ruining the enjoyment of others. Also why should carts be inexpensive, as I thought that they are there to help the balance sheet.
As for the fun factor, I thought that was from playing golf, not driving a cart
Golf is a relaxing game and by walking you can quickly dispose of work
stress – as for chilling out (if I understand you correctly) or riding a cart – is a golf course the right place to do it and what again about those who are also on the course playing golf.
A quick round – can 18 holes ever be called quick – a quick round to me is a 9 hole to unwind – two options 9 or 18 to unwind.
Children on the courses – now that is an interesting point – but I will not go down that line – because I know some people who have strong opinions on that.
Carts are necessary for the game, business and golfers – thought that was the point of the debate. No, certainly not necessary for the game, it has survived for centuries without carts, why suddenly do we need them now?
Business – if they are inexpensive what good are they for the business?
For Golfers, no, they are not necessary for golfers.

Seems that you are turning evolution on its head, my understanding is that you crawl, then walk, then run, but have never heard of needing a cart. To be honest, do you really thing that using carts can be described as evolving? 

The most interesting point that comes out form this on going debate, relates to the sighting and nature of the courses being developed. The great distance between flags and tees, due to the development of the adjacent land or designing courses in inhospitable areas/regions. That perhaps goes back to my earlier post of ‘Land fit for Purpose’.

No, to me the case for carts has not been proved, and for those courses that have a No Walking Policy, well that, to me is just not acceptable as I believe the fundamental right of any Golfer is to be allowed to walk. In America of all places I would have thought that you would be championing that cause.   

[M. Shea Sweeney]

An interesting comment, but let’s look at it in more depth.

I have always accepted that the old, disabled, injured should have access to a golf course.
I enjoy a drink or two, but at the 19th - not on the course and have seen my fair share of guys trying to play with too much beer inside them, ruining the enjoyment of others. Also why should carts be inexpensive, as I thought that they are there to help the balance sheet.
As for the fun factor, I thought that was from playing golf, not driving a cart
Golf is a relaxing game and by walking you can quickly dispose of work
stress – as for chilling out (if I understand you correctly) or riding a cart – is a golf course the right place to do it and what again about those who are also on the course playing golf.
A quick round – can 18 holes ever be called quick – a quick round to me is a 9 hole to unwind – two options 9 or 18 to unwind.
Children on the courses – now that is an interesting point – but I will not go down that line – because I know some people who have strong opinions on that.
Carts are necessary for the game, business and golfers – thought that was the point of the debate. No, certainly not necessary for the game, it has survived for centuries without carts, why suddenly do we need them now?
Business – if they are inexpensive what good are they for the business?
For Golfers, no, they are not necessary for golfers.

Seems that you are turning evolution on its head, my understanding is that you crawl, then walk, then run, but have never heard of needing a cart. To be honest, do you really thing that using carts can be described as evolving? 

No, to me the case for carts has not been proved, and for those courses that have a No Walking Policy, well that, to me is just not acceptable as I believe the fundamental right of any Golfer is to be allowed to walk. In America of all places I would have thought that you would be championing that cause.   

Melvyn,

I am glad you think that the old, disabled, and injured should have "access" to the golf course.

You are really looking at this in a very narrow minded perspective. You may not like people getting drunk on the golf course, however others do enjoy it. Whether you deem this acceptable behavior or not, it sells round of golf , as do golf carts.

Golf carts should be inexpensive at times, and be partnered into a deal with a round of golf. This will help the balance sheet as it will help to increase revenue per round of golf.

Yes, the fun is for golf, but some find the golf cart "cool". I am talking about the couple who had a few drinks friday together and decided they would try golf out. They heard its a blast. I am not talking about Hamliton B. Hearst here. God forbid we let non-golfers onto the golf course, we might even grow the game!

Quote (in regards to "chilling out on the golf course"
"is a golf course the right place to do it and what again about those who are also on the course playing golf?"

Melvyn, this is a truely bizzare question. I play competitive golf, but I go to play golf to mainly have a good time, compete with friends, and enjoy myself. Sometimes I like to play golf alone on a cart or with just my bag and few beers bymyself to wind down. I didn't think I would really have to get into the idea of people playing golf to relax themselves. If you'd like me to go further into this novel idea, please let me know.

Quote
"A quick round – can 18 holes ever be called quick – a quick round to me is a 9 hole to unwind – two options 9 or 18 to unwind."

Perfect, the golf cart is essential to get in those 9 holes on a summer evening when you can only get to the course at 630pm.
From the ages of 12-14 I would help my Uncle close our Auto Repair shop by 5pm, and we would race over to, oh yes Eisenhower Park Golf Course , hop in a cart and play as many holes as we could get in before the it was dark. What a travesty.

Quote
"Children on the courses – now that is an interesting point – but I will not go down that line – because I know some people who have strong opinions on that."

At what age did you start playing golf? Children have their time and place on the golf course, I agree. But to argue that a Father can't bring his young son or daughter to play a few holes in the evening, come on now.

Quote
"Carts are necessary for the game, business and golfers – thought that was the point of the debate. No, certainly not necessary for the game, it has survived for centuries without carts, why suddenly do we need them now?
Business – if they are inexpensive what good are they for the business?
For Golfers, no, they are not necessary for golfers."

Why suddenly do we need them? Are you aware of golf statistics since September 11th in the United States? They aren't good, Melvyn. Golf professionals must find ways to generate rounds of golf, golf carts are one way to do so.

I would love to know your definition of a "golfer"?


Quote
"No, to me the case for carts has not been proved, and for those courses that have a No Walking Policy, well that, to me is just not acceptable as I believe the fundamental right of any Golfer is to be allowed to walk. In America of all places I would have thought that you would be championing that cause."

Melvyn, the golfer should always have the right to walk on a golf course, I do agree. Golf is a walking game. However in todays golfing world the golf cart is a neccessity for golfers, and the business.

[Melvyn Morrow]

M. Shea Sweeney

Well what can I say to that, it is you opinion, but the description of the game you play or accept is certainly not the game of golf I was taught.

I feel sorry for all the Designers - it must be very confusing at times.

What can I say that will not offend, perhaps please come to the UK and enjoy our courses, relax on our wonderful 9 hole courses like Bridge of Allan and Warkworth in Northumberland. Bring the family, look at the sights and learn the history of golf and that of England, Scotland, and Wales & Northern Ireland. There will be a warm welcome for all of you.

To those that persist in using carts, I may invite you to spend a little more time in the UK as my guest in the dungeons with a little exercise on the rack to relax you a little before continuing our debate. 

[Doug Siebert]

2) he hated to hear their clubs clanging and seeing them moving out of the corner of his eyes as he was going through his preshot routine.

Hah, one of the things I hate about playing with people riding is hearing the engines start up and getting to breathe in the exhaust they leave in their wake (for the non electrics)  So if I played with this guy at least we could have equal cause to complain about each others' annoyances!

While I'm walking I generally put my right hand on the heads of my irons to keep them from clanging together too much, and am particularly conscious of that when I'm within earshot of anyone preparing to play a shot.  But I find most people, whether walkers or riders, don't think about the little things like that.  Not that I'm perfect by any means, I'm sure I do other annoying things to compensate for not doing that one

If you know someone who is a really bad offender with clanging irons, buy some iron headcovers and slip them on his irons when he's in the restroom and see if he gets the hint

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()