[Phil_the_Author]

Not one comment yet about the majority of those who play the THREE courses at Eisenhower Park on a regular basis.

By NO means is forcing them to ride in a cart going to slow down play there. To the contrary, it may actually speed things up and certainly is providing revenue to Nassau County.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Melvyn, I am calm, I'm not arguing anything, all I'm saying is that people hold different points of view, that's all.
On the other hand,  you have labeled cart users faux golfers, derided them as being lazy, consider them shameless, think designers who plan for carts are nuts, and think that your opinion is the anointed one that we should all follow.

When you become dictator of golf you can have it your way, until then you have to share.
 
  
p.s. I would suggest that over 95% of the contributors on this website have used a golf cart at one time or another.

[Doug Ralston]

Doug -
I don't think that's fair. What's wrong with anyone passionately advocating for what they believe in, or for what they'd like to see more or less of? What's wrong with stating those beliefs and aspirations on a discussion board like this one, and as clearly and forcefully and persuasively as possible? No one here is talking about legislating anything in the courts or of forcing anything on anyone, and even if in their heart of hearts they wish they could so legislate or compel, everyone here strikes me as sane and healthy enough to leave that thought right there -- and here on this dicusssion board, where it belongs. Might those advocating against the growing use of golf carts hope to see their belief win the day? Yes! But in what way is that different from any other kind of advocacy in the political or social realm? Do Democrats express their most cherished beliefs so that the Republicans might win? It's a discussion board. We discuss, using ideas, ideas that come out of our heads and, except for our posts here, mostly stay right there. You say "we're" being judgemental, but would you take away or like to control even the way people THINK? That would seem to me the greatest lack of charity of all. 

Peter   

Peter;

Please reread the comments on this thread. I have advocated vigorously the choices that people have expressed here. All of them. Choices!

But many here have NOT. They have stated that any choice but theirs demeans golf, makes it a different game, damages their children, makes America fat [lol]. In other words, they do not just disagree with those choices, they claim them somehow EVIL.

I am sorry, but that IS arrogance. To proclaim that only your CHOICES are moral/worthy is sensational judgementalism.

Doug

[Jeff Goldman]

Every year for as long as I've been on the DG (5 years or more), someone states that anybody who doesn't or can't walk a golf course isn't playing golf, shouldn't bother, is an affront to those who do walk, and, I suppose, shouldn't be allowed in the company of true golfers or on any decent course.  Usually Bob Huntley makes a post stating just how arrogant and insulting it really is to those who cannot walk (or don't want to).   I think it's time for Bob to re-post.

[Tim Bert]

Doug,

While some may have made this thread about choice, the initial post has nothing to do with choice.  It has to do with a golf course removing the choice to walk from the equation.  Very different than where many on both sides have driven this thread.

Requiring carts is very different than allowing carts.

[Andy Troeger]

Doug,

While some may have made this thread about choice, the initial post has nothing to do with choice.  It has to do with a golf course removing the choice to walk from the equation.  Very different than where many on both sides have driven this thread.

Requiring carts is very different than allowing carts.

Tim,
I was just going to post a general comment such as the above. While the course in question is one I'll likely never see, I do have a problem with courses restricting the ability to walk. I have an easier time with "walking-only" courses as that is how the game began. There appears to be a strong point in the article that this decision was based upon monetary concerns, which if true is unfortunate for the course and golf in general IMO.

On the other hand I think that all those proclaiming the evil of golf carts could focus their efforts on more important issues. Carts have allowed the game to continue to be accessible to many who can no longer walk five miles, and it has also allowed the game to be played in locations where it would not have been feasible, most notably mountain locations.

That said, I'm usually not for building cartball courses where they could be avoid (such as putting two rows of homes and a street between every tee and green. I also think that golfers should be encouraged to walk whenever possible. However, having played golf while walking and while in a cart, I'm afraid its still the same game to me.

[Craig Sweet]

I like to ride and I like to walk....sometimes I'm lazy, sometimes I'm not...sometimes my feet hurt and sometimes my back hurts and sometimes I feel fine all over....I hit a small white ball with a stick and try and knock the ball into a hole....I like to think what I do is called golf regardless of whether I ride or walk....if someone thinks otherwise, they can go f%#k themself....

[Eric Smith]

When I worked at Palmetto Dunes in the early 90's, our courses required that the customer take a cart.  We also didn't allow golfers to wear denim.  The denim policy was eventually amended as the company who owned Palmetto Dunes was Greenwood Development Corp. who happened to own several textile mills that produced denim bluejeans.  Conflict of interest I guess. 

The cart rule changed too while I was there.  Enough people were requesting to walk, noting tradition and physical fitness benefits, that the decision was made to allow walking; at full fare of course.   It really was no big deal.

If I'm not mistaken, in the 3 1/2 years I worked there, the game I played with the rest of my friends and enemies on staff was in fact GOLF. Cart or no cart.

[Will Wittman]

I dont get why you associate golf with walking.  golf was originally played with wooden clubs but your not using them are you? Well shame on you then. 
Carts are a technological advancement that do not make you better or worse unlike your space age metals.  I can understand your hatred of gps but not carts.  And while some people use them for speed i personally play 90% of my rounds by myself and am asked if i want to play through.  Ther answer is always no as i prefer a slow pace of play.
Also your insinuations that carts are only for lazy people may be true in some cases but IMO most people use carts because that is how things are set up.   I have just started walking because i now play in the afternoon when the course is near empty and i dont have to worry about other people in there carts.

[Lloyd_Cole]

I thought long and hard before posting here.

In the midst of the Casey Martin controversy I took issue with Arnie, Jack, the PGA and the USGA deeming that walking was an integral part of the game. Not because I disagreed, but because of the hypocrisy of stating this at the same time as supporting golf clubs and courses which did not even allow the ordinary golfer to walk. I did a little investigative research and I found that a significant fraction (I can't recall the exact numbers and I cannot find my letter, but I think it was almost half) of the courses that we see the pros walking with caddies did not, at the time, allow visitors to walk. Sawgrass was particularly loathsome as they allow their members to walk but not the rest of us... I had my one and only letter to Golf World published...

Now, I don't have a problem with a course not allowing walkers. It's their choice. I will never go there and if I'm researching a trip and I find that a course I'm interested in (eg Barefoot Landing) doesn't allow walking, I let them know that this is the reason that I will take my business elsewhere. I do have a problem with the USGA and their misty morning walking golfer commercial and 'A call to feet' and then holding USGA tournaments at cart only courses.

Recently I've had a minor knee injury which turned out to be a little less minor than the doctors thought and healing has been awfully slow. It seems to be golf related. In the short term I will have to play less golf than I'd like, to be sure not to injure it again, but long term I've had to think long and hard about golf as a part of my life. I may not be able to play 36 a day again, that is fine. But if the injury recurs I might have to consider the cart and the cortisone injection. It is neither arrogant or judgemental of me to state my personal feelings on the issue. I've tried cart golf. I'd rather play cards.

[Lou_Duran]

Those who advocate walking only are no better than those who would require everyone to ride carts.  As long as people play at a decent pace, are courteous in their walking or riding, and take good care of the course, why care?  Golf is to be enjoyed.  Life is all about choices.  Though I can see a potential issue when it comes to high level competitions, for the most part, who really cares?

If memory serves, the topography and routing on this particular course makes walking very difficult.  Isn't it the one that has an elevator to take the cart from one section at the bottom up to another at the top of the hill by the clubhouse?


Lloyd Cole,

As I noted on another thread on this subject by A.G. Crockett, I actually wrote the USGA asking the organization to use its bully pulpit with the large management companies (American Golf Corp. in this particular case) in support of its "Walking Member" campaign.  American Golf had taken over the management of the private club I was a member of for many years and instituted a mandatory riding policy for weekend and holiday mornings.  I got a call back from a staffer telling me that the USGA doesn't get involved with their member clubs in how they operate their businesses.  I think his words were something to the effect: "We don't tell the clubs how to cook their hamburgers".  Needless to say, I was fuming over this guy's attitude and very disappointed with the hypocrisy on the part of the organization.

It seems like the USGA at times talks out of both sides of its mouth.  If walking is indeed important in terms of the physicality and traditions of the sport, then it should do more to promote it.  This includes, in my opinion, advising its member clubs that it strongly supports programs and practices which facilitate walking as an option.

[Melvyn Morrow]

My, some of you are rather frustrated.

To put on record I am not against any aid that helps those with a medical problem using them to play golf.

Yes, I do care about golf and its future

As for Cartball, I though that was just a joke, I never realised it actually existed. And you wonder why I want to continue a debate on carts.

Golf has always been about walking.

Wooden clubs, gutty, that a flawed argument, if you have read my comments you will know that I am not against technology, but artificial aids of all kind.

I will continue fighting the corner for golf. To stay true to my beliefs and the way I was taught to play golf, which, I expect attracted you to the sport in the first place.

[Brian_Ewen]

Melvyn
If age or ill health means the only way you could play 18 holes would be to use a cart , do YOU or not ?

[Craig Sweet]

Golf has always been about walking???  No, the means of getting around a golf course initially was by foot. But what golf has always "been about" is pretty broad.  The last time I looked it was primarily "about" getting the ball in the hole.

I do not like cut and dry rules....carts only....walking only. Ultimately, it is rules such as these, that narrow participation and harm "the game" of golf.

[Brent Hutto]

Melvyn,

If you ever come to South Carolina you will no doubt be amazed and dismayed. In many areas, not being willing to ride in a golf cart severely limits your choice of courses. By and large the better private courses will allow walking, although even some of these will require carts on weekend mornings or such. Public or semi-private courses around here tend to be either all carts all the time or generally all carts with certain afternoons set aside for allowing walking.

It does not offend me in the least for someone to play golf in a golf cart. Even if they're in my foursome I don't really care way or the other. What is offensive is that it even makes sense to use the phrase "allows walking" in a discussion of the game of golf. There is a strong and growing norm among golf-course operators and in fact among the great mass of USA golfers that playing the game afoot is somehow an aberration, the mark of a cheapskate or an affectation that is indulged as a privilege for members of certain clubs.

How preposterous it all seems! Yet there are hundreds of courses in my home state where the announcement at the pro shop or starter's station that you intended to walk the course with your bag on your shoulder is the occasion of an awkward pause followed by a more or less apologetic reply that such an action is absurd and no such accomodation would be possible without slowing operations to a crawl.

Other than the handful of times per year that I engage in "cart golf" for social reasons I must limit myself to what will soon be a minority of courses that consider walking a acceptable, if perhaps suspect, way to engage in a bit of golf. If I play for as long as Gene Sarazen did, I fully expect the situation to reach the point where walking golf is a historical vestige like caddies or plus-fours.

[Doug Ralston]

Melvyn,

If you ever come to South Carolina you will no doubt be amazed and dismayed. In many areas, not being willing to ride in a golf cart severely limits your choice of courses. By and large the better private courses will allow walking, although even some of these will require carts on weekend mornings or such. Public or semi-private courses around here tend to be either all carts all the time or generally all carts with certain afternoons set aside for allowing walking.

It does not offend me in the least for someone to play golf in a golf cart. Even if they're in my foursome I don't really care way or the other. What is offensive is that it even makes sense to use the phrase "allows walking" in a discussion of the game of golf. There is a strong and growing norm among golf-course operators and in fact among the great mass of USA golfers that playing the game afoot is somehow an aberration, the mark of a cheapskate or an affectation that is indulged as a privilege for members of certain clubs.

How preposterous it all seems! Yet there are hundreds of courses in my home state where the announcement at the pro shop or starter's station that you intended to walk the course with your bag on your shoulder is the occasion of an awkward pause followed by a more or less apologetic reply that such an action is absurd and no such accomodation would be possible without slowing operations to a crawl.

Other than the handful of times per year that I engage in "cart golf" for social reasons I must limit myself to what will soon be a minority of courses that consider walking a acceptable, if perhaps suspect, way to engage in a bit of golf. If I play for as long as Gene Sarazen did, I fully expect the situation to reach the point where walking golf is a historical vestige like caddies or plus-fours.

Brent;

I expect you are right about the inevitability of carts. But you are wrong about one thing. Plus-fours are gonna make a big comeback! 

But the ongoing arguement is about choices. And I suspect most here who advocate the 'evil' of cartball, would be offended is we tried to outlaw fast food joints because they make people fat [far more evidence of it than of cartball]. They would certainly argue, and I would support [lib that I am] that choices are what we are about.

So it's plus-fours for me next season [maybe].

Doug

[Jason Connor]

I have no issue with riders.

I have a huge issue with walkable courses that don't allow walking.

I just want the choice, and I don't care if 95% of golfers' choice differs from mine.

[Will Wittman]

Wooden clubs, gutty, that a flawed argument, if you have read my comments you will know that I am not against technology, but artificial aids of all kind.

How is a cart an artificial aid?  It doesn't tell me if my swing is on plane or what the yardage is.  Golf boils down to putting the club to ball and hoping it goes where you wanted it to. not what happens in between your shots.  I could make an argument that walking is more beneficial to ones game and that carts are actually detrimental.

[Mike_Cirba]

I think golf carts are wonderful...

for dumping into landfills, pouring lava atop them, and then setting off depth charges to ensure that there's not a single piece left of any of 'em bigger than a plugged nickel.

If someone needs them because of health or age reasons, it's perfectly understandable and to the end that they extend someone's playing time on this earth, they do have a positive role.

Otherwise, they are a blight on the order of smallpox.

[Jim_Kennedy]

My, some of you are rather frustrated- Melvyn Morrow

Melvyn,
Is this remark superciliousness on your part, or just plain silliness?

Thanks in advance for clearing this up.

[Padraig Dooley]

Just curious, how many let their partner drive the cart and then walk the course?

When I come to a course that mandates carts, that's what I do.

[Melvyn Morrow]

You all have your right to your own opinion, but please actually read what I have written before posting your reply.

To those who can’t see the harm, clearly you don’t care about golf; you just want the right to play it your way, perhaps within the rules (that is if or when you agree with them).

I have never blamed the designers or architects for carts, as they just provide the course requested by their clients.

Congratulations, you have persuaded me not to travel to America to play golf.

The debate has not ended, it has just started.       

[Lloyd_Cole]

Just curious, how many let their partner drive the cart and then walk the course?

When I come to a course that mandates carts, that's what I do.

The only time I cart these days is if my pals really need a fourth player and no-one else is around. They know I hate the cart so someone will drive and I'll keep my pencil bag between my knees when I need to be on the cart.

Melvyn - you're probably right to stay away. They are everywhere except a few exclusive clubs and the odd resort. I've been here 20 years now and I'm still surprised to see young people on them. But the people are not bad people - it's what they have grown up with. It's what their clubs want. Most places we walkers are the 'weird' ones...

[Jason Connor]

Just curious, how many let their partner drive the cart and then walk the course?

When I come to a course that mandates carts, that's what I do.

I do this all the time. Oftentimes the only rounds I ride each year are on a family golf vacation.  I "ride" and just walk every chance I get.  Walking from green to tee with my putter and picking up my club for the teeshot at the tee, walking from approach shot to green.  Fortunately the golfers in my family are accommodating -- or maybe they're just happy not to have me beside them in the cart.

In a way it's not bad, sort of like having a caddy.  Plus as someone who usually carries my own bag this method allows for one of life's greatest pleasures: a 200-yard walk carrying just a putter.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I cannot think of one course out of the many that I know in my area that  doesn't have a few carts in the yard, but I can only think of a handful  that require they be taken.

I would be willing to bet that you will be allowed to walk at no less than 80% of the golf courses in the US, at least sometime during the day.   

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