[John Burzynski]

Who cares though?  Maybe the cold hard truth is that most players should not carry anything longer than a 5-iron and should lay up at every chance and lag every putt and never aim at the pin.  Even if it saves you a stroke or two (or 10) it is more fun to at least try to be bold and strategic and try to play the hole "properly" even if you are not really capable of pulling it off very often.

My point exactly...part of the fun of the game (to me at least) is to attempt to play a course strategically or 'properly', even though I can't pull it off many times.  The more I play a lot of my golf, the less I worry and fret about my score overall or the gain or loss of a specific stroke or hole.

[BCrosby]

Garland -

I think what Shivas meant to say was that the average golfer (as in the "hoi polloi" which means the "common man") is smarter than we give him credit for being.  Not the opposite.

Bob 

[Phil Benedict]

Isn't avoiding trouble a common strategy?  On virtually every shot I ask the question "where don't I want to hit it."  If there's out of bounds right I usually favor the left side even if that is not the preferred angle.  On holes where there is trouble left and right I tend to use less club off the tee so that an off-line hit is less likely to reach trouble.

I think hazards (water, trees, OB) dictate where I aim because I have adopted the strategy of avoiding the worst trouble.

[Adam Clayman]

Huck, I don't see how one of the best par 4's, could become one, if the hole is as simplistic as you make it out to be. Certainly, for the better players, who will always get to the left side, it is less exciting.   But, golfers like Hendren and myself, will in all likelyhood be happy to be short and left in two, since we will probably be out of ideal position off the tee. This strategy along the horizontal line, is how I interpreted the phrase.
I'd also cite Ken Dye's hole on the newer nine at Paa-Ko-Ridge "Muirfield" #23 (I think) which makes the majority of golfers tack their way around the staggered bunkering jutting into the line of instinct to the hole. Number 5 at CPC comes to mind as such a hole that allows the golfer to play horizontal strategy. Grant it, not a modern behmoth of a long ball hitter like a John Kavanaugh, just us short knockers. And some old ladies.

[TEPaul]

Huck:

Vertical pretty much means up and down---eg the "height" dimension. 

[Tom Huckaby]

Adam:

I did not mean to suggest it's simplistic in execution - only that there is one choice and one choice only in terms of the intended direction of the tee shot.  But you tell me - why would one ever TRY to go right of center?  The choice is just how far to go toward the green, staying as far left as one figures he should, no?

How one executes brings a myriad of possibilities, and they are magnified on this hole.

It's a great great great golf hole and I did not mean to suggest otherwise.  But now with Tom Paul's addition, I am really thrown for a loop with these terms.

So I shall bow out.

TH

[Matt Waterbury]

Remember folks, JK explicitly asked about "the average golfer".

Yes, trees and bunkers are what the average golfer tries to avoid off the tee. That is their strategy.

Cheerio,
mjw

[John Kavanaugh]

400 miles, 12 hours a zoo and three museums later I'm back home and will try to answer some questions.

TEPaul,

If I played courses eternally wide then I would aim in the middle of my preferred landing area exactly as I do today.  I would hate to pay the increase in dues associated with such simpleton design.

KBM,

I don't understand what you think I am missing by taking the most advantages route to winning a bet.  I will hit as many lines of charm through a lucky miss as a luck hit and enjoy more approaches from the fairway along the way.

Adam,

I have played the 10th at Riviera 3 times and have hit driver at the green each time.  Once driving the green, once hitting into the bunker short left of the green and once stopping thirty yards short of the green.  I have made par each time.

Others,

I started this thread because while showering this morning I was thinking about my round of the previous day and realized the two times I aimed anywhere but in the middle of the fairway was because of trees that blocked the pin.  We played summer rules in the most perverse of winter conditions you can imagine after a 4 inch morning rain.  Any shot off the fairway was a severe penalty worse than being in a sand hazard.  Fairway, fairway, fairway was what took home the bacon.  I think it is a fine strategic choice.  The course is Oak Meadow in Evansville, In. http://www.oakmeadowgolfclub.com/

[Peter Pallotta]

That's one of the interesting things about golf, isn't it - that every one who plays the game long enough and seriously enough has to learn let go of "what might have been" and to move on to the next shot or next hole or next round with as much equanimity as possible. So, ironically, that means that at some point we might develop an attitude that actually gets us less out of a round (i.e. we score worse) than we might have -- since we're not asking ourselves what might've been anymore, we play the same hole (and similar holes) the same way again and again.  John, you tried to drive the green 3 times on the Par 4 #10, got there once and got close twice, and ended up with a par each time. Maybe a player who's worse than you should be happy with that; but I'm surprised you didn't try to play that hole any differently, and surprised that you're not wondering if you might've birdied #10 once or twice if you had played it differently.

Peter 

[John Kavanaugh]

Peter,

The first time I played the hole I hit the best drive of my life 15 feet short of the pin with a straight uphill eagle putt which I hit all of 9 feet.   I can not devise a better tee strategy than that. 

The second time I played the hole I hit the best bunker shot of my life to leave myself a ten foot birdie putt.  Another par.

The third time I played a very protestant hit, hit, putt, putt.  Par is good even without a shot of a lifetime.

Strategy does not make birdies it just provides opportunity.

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks, John - that's interesting, and it's hard to argue with the results/examples at #10, and with your approach there given the nature of your game.

But I'm still thinking about what to do with that snappy last line....

Peter

[Joe Bentham]

Strategy does not make birdies it just provides opportunity.

Maybe the first thing I've heard from JK that I would agree with.  You can have a great plan, but without execution its useless.

[Jeffrey Prest]

To rely on trees as a form of a hazard, shows the limitation of a designer. IMHO it reflects the inability to use ones imagination and raises questions
along the lines of  ‘is this the correct career choice?’ and ‘would landscape gardening be more appropriate?’

However, I expect some may not agree.

It's a bit OT now, Melvyn, so I won't labour the point other to say than you are quite right in your closing expectation. I'm afraid I for one don't agree.

Ian Andrew supports your argument at http://thecaddyshack.blogspot.com/2007/11/10-things-i-hate-6-trees-directly-in.html

I try and put the case for the defence at http://golfcourseasart.blogspot.com/2007/11/trees-crowd-im-not-so-sure.html

If nothing else, you'll enjoy the video link at the end of the latter...

[JESII]

KBM,

I don't understand what you think I am missing by taking the most advantages route to winning a bet.  I will hit as many lines of charm through a lucky miss as a luck hit and enjoy more approaches from the fairway along the way.

I think you enjoy the game by playing the edges, playing for the good angles, playing in a way that recognizes the strategic qualities of a hole, rather than playing down the middle, and winning bets.  You have have reduced the game to satisfy your own selfish greed rather than trying to elevate the quality of your game, elevating your strategic thinking.  You are a sad commentary on the state of the game.  Besides, I don't buy your statement above, I think you're making it up.

Kelly,

Bad response...John is going to lose a bet because he didn't recognize a strategic advantage one day and it'll all change.

The odds (preferred angles) are where the enjoyment of the game is, and more importantly, where success in the game is.

Does anyone remember where Tiger hit his approach shot from on #18 at Bay Hill? How about the notoriously accurate Brad Bryant?

Preferred angles are everything!

If you're out playing by yourself it lets yo uknow that you are playing correctly. In any sort of compatition, the odds always sort their way into the results.

[John Kavanaugh]

KBM,

I don't understand what you think I am missing by taking the most advantages route to winning a bet.  I will hit as many lines of charm through a lucky miss as a luck hit and enjoy more approaches from the fairway along the way.

I think you enjoy the game by playing the edges, playing for the good angles, playing in a way that recognizes the strategic qualities of a hole, rather than playing down the middle, and winning bets.  You have have reduced the game to satisfy your own selfish greed rather than trying to elevate the quality of your game, elevating your strategic thinking.  You are a sad commentary on the state of the game.  Besides, I don't buy your statement above, I think you're making it up.

Kelly,

Bad response...John is going to lose a bet because he didn't recognize a strategic advantage one day and it'll all change.

The odds (preferred angles) are where the enjoyment of the game is, and more importantly, where success in the game is.

Does anyone remember where Tiger hit his approach shot from on #18 at Bay Hill? How about the notoriously accurate Brad Bryant?

Preferred angles are everything!

If you're out playing by yourself it lets yo uknow that you are playing correctly. In any sort of compatition, the odds always sort their way into the results.

I typically only only gamble at courses where I am a member so the discovery of new strategic routes are moot.  I have adopted a selfish new strategy this year in what has been a very successful attempt to evade the architects voodoo like mind games.  I hit no more than 3 iron on my second shot on all par fives.  Hit a drive in the fairway, hit a 3 iron near the green in the fairway and chip it on up.  In my own selfish way I have tricked the architect and robbed my opponents.

A question:  Are the people who only hit 3 woods off the tee being selfish by playing to their strengths?

[BVince]

A question:  Are the people who only hit 3 woods off the tee being selfish by playing to their strengths?

That is absurd.

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