[Tommy Williamsen]

I am in South Carolina for a few days and am playing on dormant Bermuda.  The lies are tight and the fairways fast and firm.  It is a great playing surface.  I don't understand why courses would overseed and lose all that time in the early summer when the grasses change.  The brown isn't what we are accustomed to but the golf is great.

[John Moore II]

Tommy--yes, dormant bermuda is very nice to play on. At many private clubs, its a possiblity to get by without overseeding. But at many resort clubs, in NC, SC and even down into Florida, people who are traveling a long distance to play are demanding green and they really don't care what it takes. So therefore, you have to overseed, or switch to a grass like Paspalum that will stay green all year. Neither option is most ideal, overseeding tends to mess with the bermuda and paspalum is prone to fungus. Overall, overseeding is just something we have to deal with.

[Chip Gaskins]

there is another great reason not to overseed rye grass....your regular fairways come in and start greening up a month or so earlier without the bermuda grass having to overcome that pesky rye during april/may.  thus better fairways all summer

[John Moore II]

Chip-agreed, and that is why private clubs in many cases do not overseed. They understand that it makes for better turf during the year. But it also depends on when your season is. In Florida, they are in season now, so these courses must look the best now. It works many ways. But I would almost say that it is financially unsound to overseed. Its hard for me to think that the revenue generated in winter on overseeded courses is higher than the cost of the overseeding. But what do I know? Maybe thats why I was the ASSISTANT Professional, not the HEAD Professional.

[Adam Russell]

Winter is my favorite time of year in GA to play for this very reason. Cheap fees, nobody on any of the area courses, no hassles to walk, and most of the little 'neck courses I play produce a better course with speedy dormant grass.

[James Bennett]

Dormant bermuda (couch in OZ) is great if you like a fast running winter fairway with tight lies.  I certainly do.  However, the 15 to 25 handicappers find the constant tight lies to be too challenging.  We don't oversew, but I'll bet these members would love the lies in winter if we did.  They probably don't care about the colour as much as the tightness (and unforgiving nature) of the lie.

PS our fairways are dormant (well, not requiring mowing) for over half of the year.

James B

[Grant Saunders]

Keeping Bermuda/couch clean and the dominant sward when it is dormant isnt exactly without expense. Weeds and cool season grasses invade easily into the surface as there is no competition.

The selective herbicides arent cheap and the potential for them to damage non targeted areas is high due to the mobile nature of them.

Also, the cost and time involved in re turfing high traffic areas are negative aspects of this theory.

It plays well on dry free draining soils but tends to become waterlogged on poor soils. This can lead to extensive and expensive attempts to drain the areas.

[Brad Klein]

There are lots of good reasons not to overseed. But one good one that does have an infuence is the traffic intolerance of dormant Bermudagrass.

It's not at all recoverable and so doesn't regenerate divots. And if you have cart traffic that beats down the turf, it gets worn out really fast. If you don't overseed, you better steer cart traffic away, ideally onto paths and keep it out of the dormant rough as well.

It's a bigger problem than many think given the prominence of carts. And just suggesting people walk all the time isn't going to work in a lot of places. The poor ability of dormant Bermudagrass to weather traffic and divots is compounded in wet weather, because when the turf doesn't grow it doesn't absorb water, which means that you better have awfully good surface/surbsurface drainage. And even so, dormant Bermuda does not do well in wet weather.

By the way, there are even some courses in the Southwest and South that are used as spray fields for municipal or regional effluent water and so they overseed in order to be able to absorb the mandated water.

Matters would be simpler if it were just about golf, and just about walking golf.

[James Bennett]

Further to Brad's point, couch/bermuda hates having wet feet.  If the roots are not getting any air, then the fairway deteriorates quite quickly in the dormant season.  The wet soil also delays the recovery from winter when spring finally breaks. It may be enough to allow the course to cope with the occasional winter downpour.  Dry roots also lead to an earlier recovery when spring finally breaks.

Of course, this might require going though late autumn with a drying out of the fairways ie less irrigation (particularly if the soils have poor drainage characteristics) to allow more 'dry under foot' golf in winter and to allow an earlier recovery in spring.

Significant cart/truck traffic is very difficult to manage during extended dormancy periods.

James B

[Don_Mahaffey]

Courses overseed for economic reasons. The cost of overseeding is high, but in areas like the SW where 70% of your revenues come in the winter, the cost of not overseeding is higher.

It is much easier to grow high quality Bermuda if you don't overseed. But if you have a lot of play, you’ll probably have to overseed your high traffic areas or you will have dirt by late spring. For instance, if you overseed your tees, your able to dress the divots with sand/mulch/seed and keep the entire tee in play. No overseed and you run out of areas to use because the Bermuda has no recuperative capacity while dormant.

And one more thing to add, those low areas that the carts destroy may look better when overseeded, but overseed or not, the Bermuda will be looking pretty sad come June. Low lying areas that stay wet and get compacted by traffic may be masked a bit by rye in the winter, but the rye is not protecting the Bermuda, and overseeding is not a solution to a problem like that.

[A.G._Crockett]

Further to Brad's point, couch/bermuda hates having wet feet.  If the roots are not getting any air, then the fairway deteriorates quite quickly in the dormant season.  The wet soil also delays the recovery from winter when spring finally breaks. It may be enough to allow the course to cope with the occasional winter downpour.  Dry roots also lead to an earlier recovery when spring finally breaks.

Of course, this might require going though late autumn with a drying out of the fairways ie less irrigation (particularly if the soils have poor drainage characteristics) to allow more 'dry under foot' golf in winter and to allow an earlier recovery in spring.

Significant cart/truck traffic is very difficult to manage during extended dormancy periods.

James B

I'd second this.  If you are playing on dormant bermuda with firm and fast conditions, you are on a course with great drainage and/or in generally dry climate conditions; it is NOT because of the dormant bermuda per se.  The ground gets, and stays, soggy in a hurry.

I live in GA and play a LOT of golf on dormant bermuda.  It is fine for awhile in Nov. and Dec., but by this point each year I am really tired of it and ready for the bermuda to green up and start growing.  The turf gets thinner and thinner, the divots more and more prevalent, and the wet areas of the course just stay wet.  As Brad Klein says, cart traffic just makes all of this worse.  The only real advantage is in the rough, where the ball just sits up, as opposed to sinking to the bottom like it does all summer.

And worst of all, chipping off soggy dormant bermuda is a game in itself.  Very limiting as to the types of shots you can play, but by now I am semi-magical with a 7-iron bump and run.  Of course, in another month, that shot largely goes back in the closet until next winter.

[Mike Hendren]

Brad,

I heard a rumor that Desert Forest was now over-seeding.  True?

Mike

[Brad Klein]

True, for the second season, not as heavily as some in the area but overseeding fairways nonetheless.

Brad

[Lou_Duran]

The wear and tear issue is a big one at a couple of courses I've played quite a bit which have stopped overseeding.  Where cart culture is dominant and money is available, I think overseeding will become the rule again.

Another twist is on the overseeding of hybrid bermuda greens.  Apparently, the rye or poa/bent seeds have a hard time penetrating the new hybrid canopies, making the overseeding lighter and spotty.  Aesthetically and performance-wise, the results are not what are expected and some courses have skipped this process.  Instead, they lightly sand the greens periodically and sometimes apply dye/paint.  The benefits and detriments are the same.  I have actually putted on greens that are at their best when dormant (smooth, little grain), and others that become mushy, bumpy, and muddy in places.

The good thing about bermuda is that if it gets enough moisture throughout the year, when it gets sunny and hot, it seems to come right back.  There are probably some diseases which it is susceptible to, but for years I couldn't get rid of the stuff in my flower and shrub beds even with Round-Up.   

 

[Kyle Harris]

It's always nice to have something that will grow and recover during the high play season. Dormant Bermuda is wonderful in March when the warm growing season is a month or so away.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I watched the grass turn green today.  It is amazing how much it likes warm weather.  One thing about playing on dormant Bermuda is you have to strike the ball well.  The lies are so tight that there is little room for error, especially  with a 60 degree wedge around the greens.  Good practice for being precise.

[Sean_A]

Does dormant Bermuda take a while to drain?  I played a few courses in NC that were very sloppy.  Is there a certain period in dormancy in which sloppiness is expected?

Ciao

[Bill_McBride]

Does dormant Bermuda take a while to drain?  I played a few courses in NC that were very sloppy.  Is there a certain period in dormancy in which sloppiness is expected?

Ciao

As somebody said above, it's all about the drainage.

Our new course in Pensacola is terrific right now - no overseeding of our Bermuda fairways and Tifdwarf greens.  We've greened up quite a bit but it's still running very fast and the greens are slick and firm.  The sand-capping of all the fairways in Jerry Pate's design for the new course has produced terrific results, and the drainage plan has by and large been very effective.  There are a handful of low spots around drains but nothing disastrous.

Dormant Bermuda is almost as good as links turf when it's just right.  Almost. 

[A.G._Crockett]

Does dormant Bermuda take a while to drain?  I played a few courses in NC that were very sloppy.  Is there a certain period in dormancy in which sloppiness is expected?

Ciao

Yes, and that's the problem; the roots are dormant and the water tends to just sit there unless the overall drainage is great.

By contrast, one of the really amazing things about bermuda is to see how quickly heavy rains from summer storms are soaked up, and how fast the grass grows when the heat is up.

As TommyW says, just in the last couple of days, you can see the green-up starting.  Bermuda just takes a few nights with low temps above some magic number to start cranking.

[Tom Yost]

I played a course last weekend that had not overseeded the fairways - Vistal Golf Club in Phoenix. 

It is quite unusual to find a course that doesn't overseed these days.  When I first moved to Arizona, none of the muni courses overseeded fairways, but now they all do.  I can't remember the last time I played on dormant bermuda.

Discovering Vistal had not overseeded was in fact, my motivation to get out and play the course. I've heard mixed reviews about the layout.  The bermuda was just beginning to green up but the lies were still quite tight nonetheless.  Well struck tee shots benefit with considerable extra roll out.  I did find the turf to be just a little bit unforgiving of any imprecise contact as I hit my share of fat shots.  Overall I enjoyed the round and I like the golf course and would recommend it.  The greens and surrounds are highly contoured and with the mostly dormant bermuda it was possible to hit chip and runs or even putt from 20-30 yards off the green.

In addition, it is a walkable core layout without housing intrusion, and adjacent to the Phoenix South Mountain Preserve and with views of the valley from many of the holes.

Tom

[James Bennett]

Does dormant Bermuda take a while to drain?  I played a few courses in NC that were very sloppy.  Is there a certain period in dormancy in which sloppiness is expected?

Ciao

Sean

if bermuda (couch in OZ, pronounced as in 'hooch') gets too thick, a thatch layer can develop.  That then means overwatering in summer (because the roots that succesfully get the water are only shallow, because that is where the water is, so encouraging more thatch).  Winter comes and the thatch layer becomes sponge like, creating a barrier to the water drainage (the same barrier that occurred in summer preventing deep-rooted bermuda.

Off course, the roots on couch/bermuda go down a long way, so they can survive a drought quite well.  However, if there is ample water available at the surface in the thatch (with no minerals from the soil, just thatch) then that is where the new roots will go.  It will be an unhealthy turf that develops.

I'll bet that North Carolina course looked absolutely fantastic in summer (through liberal applications of water), probably didn't have a sand-based soil for drainage and hasn't scarified their fairways for a few years.  Give the bermuda a scarification belting, pull back the water a little (?lot) in summer and I expect that sloppiness will disappear, except when significant rain occurs.

James B

edited, thanks Lou

[Tony Petersen]

Outlaw at Desert Mountain in N. Scottsdale, AZ has yet to be overseeded in the winter since its opening in '04. The course plays 2-3 strokes harder (vs. summer) with absolutely delicious fast & firm conditions.. and the drainage is E-X-C-E-L-L-E-N-T. Beyond the dormant grass, I would think that has to do with the climate, the soil (desert) and the lay of the land which has a pretty severe contour from W to E.

Better yet, because of the lack of green, the membership rarely brings guests in the winter & many rarely play themselves 'cause "it's just too damn hard." You end up with open tee times, core golfers, players and more than a few staff members while the other 5 courses are booked from 8 -3 

Love the design, and have spoken of it many times here on GCA.com. The greens are a consistent 11-12, the fairways a 9 and the routing caters to the land. Still, the fast & firm conditions are what make it (IMHO) one of the funnest rounds of golf to be had. Period.

[Walt_Cutshall]

I play at a course in SC that has overseeded its fairways during some years and not in others. Each approach has strengths and weaknesses. When we don't overseed, the course takes a beating. It's not just the minefield of divots that collects on certain holes, but the walking and cart damage that others have mentioned is real.

On the minus side--the turf transition issues and the fact that the course plays wet during the coolest months of the year making it a completely aerial game.

As for the "greeness" issue, I have to say that as a northerner who sees a stark grey frozen landscape for 5 months of the year, seeing green on the golf course during the winter lifts my soul quite a bit.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I think you will continue to see an increase in overseeding fairways. However the greens will hopefully stay dormant for that is the best they are all year. Wow so firm fast and consistent.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I think you will continue to see an increase in overseeding fairways. However the greens will hopefully stay dormant for that is the best they are all year. Wow so firm fast and consistent.

Tiger, over seeding may be the way to go on highly used resort courses, but from what I have heard, more private clubs are not over seeding.

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