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jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: bunkers in the middle of the fairway
« Reply #50 on: March 25, 2008, 10:40:32 AM »
Patrick:

The 3rd at Forest Creek South offers another example of the centerline fairway bunker/diagonal cross bunker combination. The hole is also pictured in Ran's write-up although his photo fails to show the far right bunker. The hole is a short uphill par 5 with three diagonal bunkers that introduce a decision on the second shot. All three sit in the fairway with small gaps in between. Both the left and the right bunkers are bordered on the outside by rough. The left bunker is much closer to the green, but presents a riskier carry that is rewarded by a much better line to the pin. Most players will either lay up shot of the left bunker or try to carry the middle bunker. Carrying the right bunker is a sucker play because it leaves a tough shot over a deep bunker fronting the right of the green. The middle and left bunkers are deep enough that failure to carry almost always eliminates par.

BTW, these cross bunkers were designed by Tom Fazio, who has been quoted as saying he doesn't like cross bunkers!

Jim Lewis
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: bunkers in the middle of the fairway
« Reply #51 on: March 25, 2008, 04:34:47 PM »
Interestingly, while Mr. Jones takes a lot of the blame here for bracketing bunkers, he DID put a single bunker in the middle of the landing area on #15 at Oakland Hills (South) ... it could have been there from Ross' day, although I doubt it.

Never stereotype a great designer.

David Mulle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: bunkers in the middle of the fairway
« Reply #52 on: March 25, 2008, 05:31:46 PM »
I have never figured out how to play the 13th at bethpage red.  Perfect example but what is the idea there?   Also the 12th at Ibis is genius.  Huge fairway but you better hit it on the proper side.  Classic Nicklaus.  Reese, write that down.

I really like the 13th at Bethpage Red.  Most golfers end up going to the right because that is their ball flight.  That leaves a shorter approach but there is a bunker you need to carry and the green is very shallow when you approach it from that angle.

If you go left, the approach is longer but you do not need to go over the bunker.  Instead you are approaching the green from a different angle that makes it much deeper. 

The hole would be much less interesting without the center bunkers.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: bunkers in the middle of the fairway
« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2008, 05:54:28 PM »
Tim....trust me newbie....your 60/40 redundancy calculation theory doesn't apply to me.....and if you suggest that ever again I will then offer up a challenge to whip your by then documented redundant butt!

Paul....

"I ALWAYS LEAVE at least a 60/40 fairway ratio on either side, and ..."

What more do I have to say... 

Documented redundancy..   That is a good one... What -- Seth or Charles? 


Tim....see there you go again...now you're starting to get a little redundant on me...and you were the one who was accusing me of designing redundantly!

I mean I wouldn't mind if you suggested that I was dundant...I'll readily admit to  that...in fact many of my friends call me that quite often.......but 're'dundant is something altogether different.....its just not me.

My hope is that we can resolve this amicably.

paul ;)
« Last Edit: March 26, 2008, 05:42:54 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: bunkers in the middle of the fairway
« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2008, 06:43:03 PM »
Interestingly, while Mr. Jones takes a lot of the blame here for bracketing bunkers, he DID put a single bunker in the middle of the landing area on #15 at Oakland Hills (South) ... it could have been there from Ross' day, although I doubt it.

Never stereotype a great designer.

One central bunker offsets all the other courses with flanking bunkers and no central bunkering?  I dunno if that breaks the stereotype rule!  ???

Not just one central bunker, but the 4th hole at Robert Trent Jones International in Virginia has a magnificent set of diagonal bunkers set in echelon on a slight dogleg right, slightly uphill 430 yard par 4.  It's a wonderful hole; the player has to make a good decision whether he can carry those bunkers and at what point if he's going to make par.

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: bunkers in the middle of the fairway
« Reply #55 on: March 26, 2008, 01:09:52 AM »
Obviously it can be overused so you don't want this on every hole, but I think even a tiny little pot bunker put roughly sorta kinda in the center of the fairway where drives may land, or vaguely in the preferred layup area on a par 5 can add a lot of interest to a hole that may otherwise have little.

Think of a course you know that's pretty good that has a few blah holes, and imagine adding a tiny little bunker like this, and think about how it would affect the thought process of people playing it.

I'm not a big fan of the huge fairway spanning cross bunker, or the huge yawning bunker sitting in the middle of the fairway.  They are the bastard cousin of the pond or stream carry that's so badly overused in golf architecture already.  They have their place, I'm not suggesting changes to Prestwick or NGLA by any means, but they look out of place on an otherwise modern looking course.  I prefer something subtle, and a bunker doesn't have to be big at all to get into people's heads, even though their odds of finding it aren't great.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: bunkers in the middle of the fairway
« Reply #56 on: March 26, 2008, 04:47:37 PM »
Obviously it can be overused so you don't want this on every hole, but I think even a tiny little pot bunker put roughly sorta kinda in the center of the fairway where drives may land, or vaguely in the preferred layup area on a par 5 can add a lot of interest to a hole that may otherwise have little.

Think of a course you know that's pretty good that has a few blah holes, and imagine adding a tiny little bunker like this, and think about how it would affect the thought process of people playing it.


Like #5 at Talking Stick North?


Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: bunkers in the middle of the fairway
« Reply #57 on: March 26, 2008, 10:43:43 PM »
Mr. Jones put a load of bunkers — small ones — smack in front of greens at The Wigwam Blue Course. There must be 6 holes with nearly the same feature. We had not seen that tendency before...has anyone?
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Patrick_Mucci

Re: bunkers in the middle of the fairway
« Reply #58 on: March 26, 2008, 10:53:09 PM »
Forest,

Hollywood had that feature on # 10 and # 16.

However, both features were removed.
I'm not sure that they were original.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: bunkers in the middle of the fairway
« Reply #59 on: March 26, 2008, 11:16:09 PM »
I will hold Jay Morrish accountable at The Wigwam Blue — it was his first assignment !
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

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