[paul cowley]

Sheesh....here I am hoping to pin down a newbie and then Forrest shows up .
.....which is OK....cause he's got my brain cells and a few others too....but I'm not giving you strokes next week if thats your angle

[Forrest Richardson]

Paul — This is off-topic...but, is the Dawn of your existence planning to shine on Scotland next week?

[paul cowley]

OT too...she says yes.

[Adam Clayman]

Tommy, Cary, What is the difference between a center of the fairway bunker and one that is directly on your line to the hole, with the fairway sweeping to one side or the other?

Pat Mucci, I had the pure golf experience yesterday at Wild Horse. 20-30 N winds. I took a couple of the H.S. kids from the golf team and enjoyed watching them interface with all the great bunkering at WH. You should've seen the look on the freshman's face, on the very first hole, when he was completely fooled by how the two left side bunkers, which are directly on line with the green, looked as though they were either right next to one another, or, one big complex, but are actually almost 200 yards apart. On the par 4 5th, the senior player pulled driver after I had explained to the freshman how trying to get closer to the hole off the tee wasn't needed and brought the left side into play. He of course hit a great drive right into the left bunker on his way to a double, while me and the freshman played to the fat of the fairway and hit up on to the front of the green finishing with easy pars.

For WH fans, The course winter very well with no signs of any damage, anywhere. I must say that playing this time of year is ideal as the Wooga is laying down and balls were easily recovered from there.

[Tony Ristola]

Like most topics on strategy or hazard placement, there are a million variables.

Bunkers in the middle are fine so long as there is room to one side or the other, or both.

They are ideal in a wide expanse as one singular or a couple can make play more interesting than five fold the bunkers flanking the hole, or even eating into one side or the other or both.

What about the contour of the land? The tilt? the varying wind/weather conditions and the judgment required or not on that day.

It's up to the golfer to make his way, and who says the center of the fairway is the ideal line? After the Tour started publishing stats, Hogan asked something along the lines of... "what about shots where you intentionally miss the fairway"... to get the better angle of attack?

[Tim Gerrish]

Tim....trust me newbie....your 60/40 redundancy calculation theory doesn't apply to me.....and if you suggest that ever again I will then offer up a challenge to whip your by then documented redundant butt!

Paul....

"I ALWAYS LEAVE at least a 60/40 fairway ratio on either side, and ..."

What more do I have to say... 

Documented redundancy..   That is a good one... What -- Seth or Charles? 

[Lester George]

Pat Mucci,

Ditto! 

As Ross said, it is the golfers business to avoid them.  Bunkers on any intended line are not only fair, but necessary.

Lester

[Brian Cenci]

Have you ever played Lakewood Shores, The Gailes course in Oscoda, Michigan?  On the 8th hole I believe (a par 5) there are pot bunkers (8'-10' wide) littered everywhere in the middle and on the side of the fairway that you can't even see off the tee.  Now that is unfair and just stupid.

-Brian

[Mark_Fine]

I redesigned a hole not too long ago on a slight dogleg left par four.  If you can picture this (I'll post photos later if I can find some), there was a bunker near the turn of the dogleg on the right side of the fairway about 230 yards off the middle tee.  The fairway to the left of this bunker was maybe 25 yards wide at most (a tight driving hole).  Trees blocked the left side.  To make the hole more interesting, we took out some trees on the right and expanded the fairway 20 yards out to the right and up to and around that bunker.  Now the bunker was essentially in the center of the fairway as fairway wrapped around both sides of it.  A number of the golfers who routinely played the course thought the new design was unfair (even though that bunker was just fine where it was before we added the extra fairway to the right).  Despite the hole being much more exciting to play, some still don't get it    Their problem is that they now have to think on the tee and they get confused what to do.  Most probably will just aim at that bunker and if it goes in they'll get upset   

Centerline hazards is a concept that was lost for many years on most American courses as everything was tossed to the sides and play was forced down the middle.  It will take time to re-educate golfers that this is a great aspect of golf course design.  Like any design feature, it should not be over used. 

[Bill_McBride]

Centerline hazards is a concept that was lost for many years on most American courses as everything was tossed to the sides and play was forced down the middle.  It will take time to re-educate golfers that this is a great aspect of golf course design.  Like any design feature, it should not be over used. 

Mark, do we blame RTJ, Sr for forcing all play down the middle?  Hard not to.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Bill McBride,

I think RTJ gets unfairly blamed.

I haven't seen many AWT courses that had centerline bunkers that forced play to their flanks.

I'd have to say the same about the Ross courses I've played.

My perspective on the extinction of centerline hazards is the expansion of the game to other "types" of golfers in conjunction with the evolving emphasis on "fairness"

[Mark_Fine]

Bill,
RTJ definitely played his part. 

Pat,
Regarding AWT or Ross putting hazards in the direct line of play - they sure did.  You must be basing your opinion on what you see there now vs. what was once there or else you have not studied many of their courses.  That is a big mistake when evaluating older designs as most have changed (and not always for the better). 

I will say, however, that you are correct in that the loss of centerline hazards did have something to do with that dreaded word "fairness" 

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Mark Fine,

My post indicated that my observations were based on my personal experiences, based on my play of AWT's and Ross's courses, and that the features referenced were centerline hazards which forced play to their flanks,  not cross bunkers.

What courses of AWT and Ross had centerline bunkers which permitted or forced play to their flanks ?

[Mark_Fine]

Pat,
Do you have Brad's book on Ross or any of the Tillie books.  Log off GCA and do some reading 

By the way, a bunker in the center of the fairway is a type of cross hazard.  You don't have to cross over it but you can if you want to. 

[Andy Troeger]

Double Eagle actually has center bunkers on #2, #9 and #18. In the first two occasions there are clusters of bunkers that do divide the fairway into two options. It seems to work best on #2 which has teeing areas at two different angles. This creates quite a bit of variety on a fairly short par five.

#9 the fairway is pretty wide so the center bunkers work pretty well here too as you can play safer to the left then play over bunkers for the second shot from a potentially longer distance or try to shorten the hole and improve the angle by going to the right. That makes sense to me and I like both those holes.

#18 is potentially reachable but being that the second is over water very few non-pros would try it. For the majority of golfers its just two shots in front of the water and an iron over. The bunker does serve to challenge the drive but it essentially just encourages the golfer to lay-up off the tee on a closing par five because there is some width to each side, but not enough to encourage trying to fit the ball through the gap. The percentages aren't there from what I remember. I'd like it better if the bunker was farther left and gave the player a chance to hit driver (as the left side would be preferable) and challenge the bunker for a chance to get home in two.

[Darren deMaille]

I have never figured out how to play the 13th at bethpage red.  Perfect example but what is the idea there?   Also the 12th at Ibis is genius.  Huge fairway but you better hit it on the proper side.  Classic Nicklaus.  Reese, write that down.

[jim_lewis]

My favorite bunker in the middle of the fairway is on the 8th hole of the Forest Creek GC South Course. It is pictured on the second page of Ran's course write-up of the course under "courses by architect-Fazio". The bunker is reachable by most players and is only about 100 yards from a shallow green that runs from front to back with a ridge down the middle that makes a putt accross the green very difficult.  Hole location dictates which side of the fairway bunker is best. Because a bunker fronts the right side of the green (which runs away), a right pin suggests a tee shot to the left side. A hole on the left is better approached from the right since a mound 30 yards short blocks the view of the pin from the left.

What really adds to the interest created by the fairway bunker is the fact that while it is reachable, it is very difficult to actually hit it. The ground in front of the bunker slopes right so that balls that land short always kick right of the bunker. The ground left of the bunker is level so that balls that land left of the bunker stay left.  However, since the bunker appears to be directly in play it messes with the player's mind. Many hit less than a driver in an effort to stay short of the bunker, when that is not really a smart play. The target landing areas on the green are so small that it is important to have the shortest possible approach shot. Besides, the flatest lies are left and right of the bunker. That one little bunker, combined with tough hole locations, often turns that short birdie hole into a bogey.

Jim Lewis

[Ed Oden]

My favorite bunker in the middle of the fairway is on the 8th hole of the Forest Creek GC South Course. It is pictured on the second page of Ran's course write-up of the course under "courses by architect-Fazio". The bunker is reachable by most players and is only about 100 yards from a shallow green that runs from front to back with a ridge down the middle that makes a putt accross the green very difficult.  Hole location dictates which side of the fairway bunker is best. Because a bunker fronts the right side of the green (which runs away), a right pin suggests a tee shot to the left side. A hole on the left is better approached from the right since a mound 30 yards short blocks the view of the pin from the left.

What really adds to the interest created by the fairway bunker is the fact that while it is reachable, it is very difficult to actually hit it. The ground in front of the bunker slopes right so that balls that land short always kick right of the bunker. The ground left of the bunker is level so that balls that land left of the bunker stay left.  However, since the bunker appears to be directly in play it messes with the player's mind. Many hit less than a driver in an effort to stay short of the bunker, when that is not really a smart play. The target landing areas on the green are so small that it is important to have the shortest possible approach shot. Besides, the flatest lies are left and right of the bunker. That one little bunker, combined with tough hole locations, often turns that short birdie hole into a bogey.

Jim Lewis

Jim, that is a great example.  I've always loved that hole, although I honestly haven't figured out how to play it, particularly with the bounces you can get from the rippling fairway.  A thought just occurred to me.  A centerline bunker on a short par 4 (such as #8 at FC South) really serves the same function as a centerline bunker on the second shot of a par 5, which (as I noted in an earlier post on this thread) is a design feature I really like.

Ed

[RSLivingston_III]

Generally, I find them kinda bad design, as they punish a perfectly hit straight drive...there is one ont the 3rd hole of the Ritz in Jupiter, Fl and I always thought it was dumb, JN design, and he does it alot

I view a perfectly hit straight drive as landing in the fairway to the side of the bunker you aimed for.

[Doug Siebert]

I don't understand the people who say it punishes a perfectly straight drive.  As others said, who aims at a bunker??  Do those of you who say this feel some need to determine your aiming point by finding the centerline between the two edges of the fairway?  What happened to strategy, getting the correct approach angle, etc?  Should those holes with a centerline bunker have a fairway half as wide so you now will be forced to aim away from the bunker?  This reminds me of my dad when he gets mad about the tee markers not pointing down the fairway.

If that's how you aim, you deserve what you get, and the centerline bunker (or badly placed tee markers) have accomplished the task the evil GCA (or hungover mower jock) intended!

[Sean_A]

By the way, a bunker in the center of the fairway is a type of cross hazard.  You don't have to cross over it but you can if you want to. 

Mark

Using your definition for cross hazard, any hazard can be a cross hazard.  I think a cross hazard is when the fairway is blocked by hazard.  If the player wants to play via the fairway he has to carry the hazard.  If there is reasonable (we can debate what reasonable constitutes) room to go to either side then its a centreline hazard.  If there is room to one side its a wing hazard or whatever you want to call fairway to one side and rough to the other.  I think archies should use all three types (whether it be water or sand) including having wing hazards on both sides of the fairway, but sparingly. 

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Seeing as the first ever example of a designed centreline bunker is commonly referred to as the first ever example of Strategic Design and has been hailed by Simpson, Darwin and a whole host of other names as one of the major inspirations for Strategic Golf Course Architecture, it is going to take a better argument than those given so far by the naysayers to persuade me otherwise...

the 4th at Woking being the hole... which in its own way was modelled on the 16th at St. Andrews...

If the risk/reward is there for the correct choice (as it is with both of these holes), then so much the better.

But even without it, you have to think whilst standing on the tee.

[Lester George]

Doug,

You are on the right path.

Lester

[Dan Boerger]

The 18th at Fieldstone (Hurdzan/Fry) in Delaware has a middle of the fairway bunker. At first, I thought it contrived. But, after playing the course 20+ times, I really think it adds to the hole. It's 300+ yards from the tee (uphill slight dogleg right) so it won't challenge your tee shot unless your name is Johnny Holmes. Yet, you'll think about it every time you're playing your approach shot. If you're a long hitter you'll have a chance to be on or greenside in two. But, as we know, a 3, 5 or utility wood can be topped somewhat so chances are it will creep into your brain. Hit a bad drive (short or in the rough) and you'll definitely have to contend with it.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Pat,
Do you have Brad's book on Ross or any of the Tillie books.  Log off GCA and do some reading 

By the way, a bunker in the center of the fairway is a type of cross hazard.  You don't have to cross over it but you can if you want to. 

Mark,

I tend to differentiate between a centerline bunker and a cross bunker, irrespective of whether the cross bunker extends partially or fully across the entire fairway.

I've also seen hybrids which combine the concepts of a centerline bunker with a diagonal cross bunker.  # 8 at NGLA might be an example.

I'm a big advocate of cross bunkers for a variety of reasons.

I like their ability to force evaluations and decisions.
I like the risk/reward many present, and, I like the difficulty they present should the golfer fail to safely negotiate them.

Cross bunkers have also appeared to have become extinct in the name of "fairness"

It's unfortunate because the add so much more to a hole.

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