[Tommy Williamsen]

I can understand a cluster of bunkers in the middle of the fairway that in essence gives the players and option of two different routes to the green.  The second at Kinloch is an example of that.

What I don't understand is a bunker in the middle of the fairway whose only purpose is to grab a ball that is hit down the middle.  I know you can hit it short, try to fly it of avoid it let or right, but it seems just a little too over the top.  18 at Double Eagle might serve as an example.

[Bill_McBride]

I don't understand the difference between the cluster and the single  bunker.  Either way, if you can't fly it (cluster or single bunker), you have to make a decision about what to do.  Indecision is the GCA's greatest tool.

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

There is no problem here, the archie is simply asking you to make a choice.
It would seem to me that the designer has you so confused that you don't know what to do, so he has won the battle of brains.
If it were me playing, I would be like Mr. McBride, I would make the decision and hit the damn thing!!!!!!!!!
Putting a hazard in what the golfer considers to be his ultimate line of play, he has achieved his goal, and makes the golfer think.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Generally with a cluster of bunkers they arre there to separate to distinct fairway options.  At Kinloch the fairway left of the bunkers gives the best angle to the green but it is more difficult to hit.

The bunker on 18 at Double Eagle does nothing good that I can see.  I really don't think that it has any strategic value.

[Sean_A]

Generally with a cluster of bunkers they arre there to separate to distinct fairway options.  At Kinloch the fairway left of the bunkers gives the best angle to the green but it is more difficult to hit.

The bunker on 18 at Double Eagle does nothing good that I can see.  I really don't think that it has any strategic value.

Tommy

I would suggest that if the centreline bunker doesn't have strategic value in terns of the approach then something has gone wrong at the green end.  However, even if the centreline bunker doesn't tie into the approach, it should effect the tee shot.  Isn't this strategic in a direct tax sort of way?

Ciao

[Tommy Williamsen]

Generally with a cluster of bunkers they arre there to separate to distinct fairway options.  At Kinloch the fairway left of the bunkers gives the best angle to the green but it is more difficult to hit.

The bunker on 18 at Double Eagle does nothing good that I can see.  I really don't think that it has any strategic value.

Tommy

I would suggest that if the centreline bunker doesn't have strategic value in terns of the approach then something has gone wrong at the green end.  However, even if the centreline bunker doesn't tie into the approach, it should effect the tee shot.  Isn't this strategic in a direct tax sort of way?

Ciao

I here you.  I just don't get it.  At Double Eagle 18 is a par five.  Angle of the tee isn't that important, even if you go for the green in two.  The bunker seems more nuisance than strategic.

[Chip Gaskins]

man, i love the bunkers on Pac Dunes #3....

i thought the consensus on this site was the internal hazards, if used correctly, add so much strategy to a hole (riviera #10) and in modern day golf are completely under used.

[Sean_A]

Generally with a cluster of bunkers they arre there to separate to distinct fairway options.  At Kinloch the fairway left of the bunkers gives the best angle to the green but it is more difficult to hit.

The bunker on 18 at Double Eagle does nothing good that I can see.  I really don't think that it has any strategic value.

Tommy

I would suggest that if the centreline bunker doesn't have strategic value in terns of the approach then something has gone wrong at the green end.  However, even if the centreline bunker doesn't tie into the approach, it should effect the tee shot.  Isn't this strategic in a direct tax sort of way?

Ciao

I here you.  I just don't get it.  At Double Eagle 18 is a par five.  Angle of the tee isn't that important, even if you go for the green in two.  The bunker seems more nuisance than strategic.

Tommy

You know me, I like as few bunkers on a course as an archie has the balls not to build - unfortuantely archies don't see thngs the way I do!  However, I don't think I have ever encountered a centreline bunker that didn't make sense in some way or another - I even haave more sympathy for bunker clusters (which I generally detest) if they are in the centre.  There are so many ways a centreline bunker can come into play.  Some of the coolest are those which you only notice on a few occassions:  either when the hole is playing massively downwind and in keen conditions it can be reached even though you never give it a thought until you are burned - Southerness had a few holes which were brilliant examples of this.  Or as recovery bunkers after a poor drive - they muck with the layup shot (or the get out of trouble shot).  Of course, a bunker at the same distance can serve both these purposes.

Ciao

[Lloyd_Cole]

Tommy
I've never seen Double Eagle and google didn't help..
Would you say there is room to skirt it left or right or is the fairway 'regular' width with a bunker in the middle? If the fairway isn't wide enough, then for anyone with a statistical brain, it's effectively a cross bunker.

[Sean_A]

Tommy
I've never seen Double Eagle and google didn't help..
Would you say there is room to skirt it left or right or is the fairway 'regular' width with a bunker in the middle? If the fairway isn't wide enough, then for anyone with a statistical brain, it's effectively a cross bunker.

Lloyd

I assumed there was room both sides of the bunker because I don't think of a cross bunker and a centreline bunker as the same thing at all. 

Ciao

[Lloyd_Cole]

Tommy
I've never seen Double Eagle and google didn't help..
Would you say there is room to skirt it left or right or is the fairway 'regular' width with a bunker in the middle? If the fairway isn't wide enough, then for anyone with a statistical brain, it's effectively a cross bunker.

Lloyd

I assumed there was room both sides of the bunker because I don't think of a cross bunker and a centreline bunker as the same thing at all. 

Ciao

Sean

I was making no such assumptions, and therefore I disagree. If there isn't room for anyone but Hogan to dare skirt the bunker, it is effectively a cross bunker.

[Sean_A]

Tommy
I've never seen Double Eagle and google didn't help..
Would you say there is room to skirt it left or right or is the fairway 'regular' width with a bunker in the middle? If the fairway isn't wide enough, then for anyone with a statistical brain, it's effectively a cross bunker.

Lloyd

I assumed there was room both sides of the bunker because I don't think of a cross bunker and a centreline bunker as the same thing at all. 

Ciao

Sean

I was making no such assumptions, and therefore I disagree. If there isn't room for anyone but Hogan to dare skirt the bunker, it is effectively a cross bunker.

Lloyd

I tend to agree with you, hence the reason I would call a bunker like that a cross bunker.  It needn't actually touch both sides of the rough to effectively be a cross bunker.  A centreline bunker to me implies that there is room either side for a passing shot as it were.  I couldn't define how many yards is required for a passing shot, but I know it when I see it!

Ciao

[paul cowley]

I have designed more than a few of these....sometimes I try to design them as a small target that you can aim for, knowing that your odds of hitting in them really helps ensure that most players won't be in them at all.

I always leave at least a 60/40 fairway ratio on either side, and they also help to keep the overall bunker count down.....but of course you have to have the width.

When talking to myself, I refer to them as Traffic Cop Bunkers, primarily because of the way they manage the flow of traffic whilst being right in the middle of it!

[cary lichtenstein]

Generally, I find them kinda bad design, as they punish a perfectly hit straight drive...there is one ont the 3rd hole of the Ritz in Jupiter, Fl and I always thought it was dumb, JN design, and he does it alot

[Joe Hancock]

Generally, I find them kinda bad design, as they punish a perfectly hit straight drive...there is one ont the 3rd hole of the Ritz in Jupiter, Fl and I always thought it was dumb, JN design, and he does it alot

Cary,

Sometimes, you're supposed to hit a perfectly straight drive to one side of the fairway or the other.

 

Joe

[Ed Oden]

I've always thought centerline fairway bunkers can have great strategic value on the second shot of a par five.  The risk/reward decision on whether you can carry or skirt a center bunker in order to get on or close to a par five in two is one of my favorites.  Especially when playing short or hitting into the bunker means a difficult par. 

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Generally, I find them kinda bad design, as they punish a perfectly hit straight drive...there is one ont the 3rd hole of the Ritz in Jupiter, Fl and I always thought it was dumb, JN design, and he does it alot

Cary,

I would disagree.

It doesn't punish a "perfectly hit straight drive".

Noone aims at a bunker, they aim away from it, hence, a perfectly hit straight drive would avoid the bunker, not come to rest in it.

Thus, it punishes a missed hit or a poorly planned drive.

Wild Horse has some neat centerline bunkers.
I especially liked those on the second shot on the par 5.
I thought they were spectacularly strategic.

[mike_beene]

Tommy,what about 6 at Carnoustie? Good or bad,and does the ob change opinion?

[Norbert P]

1) ....sometimes I try to design them as a small target that you can aim for, knowing that your odds of hitting in them really helps ensure that most players won't be in them at all.
...
2) ... I refer to them as Traffic Cop Bunkers, primarily because of the way they manage the flow of traffic whilst being right in the middle of it!

 1)  You joke but that method seems to be my method.  Example, the "Shoe Bunker" at #2 Pac Dunes.

 2)  Clever and appropriate name for the center bunker. I like it. My play would make it the Keystone Cop Bunker.

[paul cowley]

1) ....sometimes I try to design them as a small target that you can aim for, knowing that your odds of hitting in them really helps ensure that most players won't be in them at all.
...
2) ... I refer to them as Traffic Cop Bunkers, primarily because of the way they manage the flow of traffic whilst being right in the middle of it!

 1)  You joke but that method seems to be my method.  Example, the "Shoe Bunker" at #2 Pac Dunes.

 2)  Clever and appropriate name for the center bunker. I like it. My play would make it the Keystone Cop Bunker.

Slag.....

1) I am not joking because that is how I think about the design of a hole and the "shot requirements/versus ones ability" ratio.......so lets take mine as an example....I was once a low single digit but I am now a double who knows what.

#8 at the Barefoot Love course is a good example of a "Traffic Cop" bunker,  a 6yd wide bunker placed dead center from the back tees at 283 yds, with good fairway width options on either side, although the longer players generally would challenge the narrower left side.

I aim at the bunker with my drive.
My drive dispersal is probably at least 45 yds plus, so my chances of landing where I am aiming are about one in 8 or 10.

Its funny that when on the  occasion that I do land in the bunker its not such a let down....because its where I aimed and I actually got it right....and I chuckle.

Now I have a similar theory that I employ when a slender obstacle is in play about 25 to 30 ft out in front of me.....and I laugh out loud when its struck soundly in the middle!

....it's really just a game....right?

[Lloyd_Cole]

Tommy,what about 6 at Carnoustie? Good or bad,and does the ob change opinion?

Mike

I'm not Tommy, but, surely the 6th is what golf is all about. And the OB, with the bunkers, makes the hole, but you don't have to go anywhere near it...

[Tommy Williamsen]

Sorry to have been among the missing, but the last few days have kept me busy.  I'm on my way down to SC for a little golf.

As for Carnoustie, it is a great bunker.  But as I recall it it is more left of center than center.  But it has been 15 years since I played there.  There are some bunkers regardless of their strategic value that should be left because of history.

18 at Double Eagle does have some room left and right.  Not a lot but it does make the player think.  I just don't understand how it helps the hole at all.  In rethinking my opinions, I can understand that some centerline bunkers might have strategic value.  I for one am glad they are not used very often.

[Tim Gerrish]

I think you nailed it right on...

"...but it does make the player think. "

It is also maybe a little controversial.. Thus you are talking about it...  Other golfers talk about and maybe even some of them go play there because of it.

When we calculate everything in design (i.e. 60/40 fairway widths with middle fairway bunkers), design might get a little redundant.

[paul cowley]

I think you nailed it right on...

"...but it does make the player think. "

It is also maybe a little controversial.. Thus you are talking about it...  Other golfers talk about and maybe even some of them go play there because of it.

When we calculate everything in design (i.e. 60/40 fairway widths with middle fairway bunkers), design might get a little redundant.

Tim....trust me newbie....your 60/40 redundancy calculation theory doesn't apply to me.....and if you suggest that ever again I will then offer up a challenge to whip your by then documented redundant butt!

[Forrest Richardson]

I think you need to consider a host of influences — sometimes the "middle" may be appropriate, but there are lots of considerations that might make placement good in one instance; bad in another.

At this hole the exact middle would have meant that players would not have felt enticed by the more open left side — and that is what we wanted: A shot played left is more open, but the pitfall is that the lie is considerable lower and the approach more difficult. So,  the risky tee ball is over or right of the pimple and/or bunker...that sets up the more open and higher angle to the green.

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