[Tom Huckaby]

Hey, we course raters do our best, and the system is pretty darn good.  That does not mean that there won't be outliers where real life golf proves the numbers to be a bit off; I'd just have to guess those are rare exceptions.

I will say this:  short grass as a defense is not given much credit in the system.  There is an adjustment we can make for very very firm conditions, but my sense is it is rarely given.  Humps and bumps and hollows and the like do get evaluated... thus I am struggling to imagine why PR-WH worked out as it did.  But if it did, then fair enough, it's the exception.  I don't think this instance invalidates the entire system (which I also don't think you are saying, John).

TH

[JohnV]

First, I've done this so many times before on this site that I really have to bookmark one to refer everyone to in the future.

Slope = (BR-CR) * 5.381 (4.something for women)

So,
BR = Slope / 5.381 + CR

Bogey Rating for Tobacco Road from tips 101.1, Oakmont 105.3 and Kiawah 104.0.

Want a course with a low CR and a high slope, put a lake that must be carried 140-180 yards off the tee.   Want one with High CR and low slope, put the water at 210-230 yards.  The first requires the high handicapper to layup and the second the low handicapper.    Each makes the course play longer for the player who lays up than for the other player.  You are adding yardage to the course.  Do that 10 times and you add 600+ yards for the high handicapper or 400+ yards for the scratch player.  That would add almost 3 strokes to the bogey rating or 2 to the scratch rating while having a minimal effect on the other player.

Neither sound like much fun to me.

[Tom Huckaby]

You have answered this countless times - thanks for the patience, John!

And yes, if every hole works out as you say, neither course would be much fun.  But if we are to err on a side, wouldn't it be better to be high CR, low slope?  There are other ways it could work out as such of course...

TH

[Jim Nugent]

I'd prefer high course rating and low slope.

Scratch golfers would shoot around 75 and bogey golfers around 95.

If CR is 75, and Bogey Rating is 95, then slope on this course is 108.  Does such a course exist?  If so, how does it achieve these numbers?  i.e. why is it so hard for excellent golfers, but so easy for average ones? 

CR affects expected scores of bogey golfers much more than slope does.  If a bogey golfer wants to know what he'll likely shoot at any course, he should look first at the course rating.  Without even knowing slope, he can add around 21 to 27 to CR.  At almost all courses he'll have a pretty good idea of what to expect. 

[TEPaul]

"If CR is 75, and Bogey Rating is 95, then slope on this course is 108.  Does such a course exist?  If so, how does it achieve these numbers?"

Jim:

Fred Ruttenberg and JohnV already told you that---eg BR-CR divided by 5.381=slope rating


"why is it so hard for excellent golfers, but so easy for average ones?"

It's hard for a scratch golfer because a CR of 75 is generally 3,4 or 5 strokes higher than the course's par. Slope is only a RELATIVE measure between a bogey and scratch golfer so a handicap player will not need as many strokes vs a scratch player on a lower slope course than on a higher slope course. 

[Jim Nugent]

Tom, my question is if any courses exist that have a course rating of 75 and a slope of 108.  I would expect courses with CR's as high as 75 to have higher slopes too. 

[TEPaul]

"Tom, my question is if any courses exist that have a course rating of 75 and a slope of 108.  I would expect courses with CR's as high as 75 to have higher slopes too."

Jim:

I don't know if any courses exist with a CR of 75 and a slope of 108. Apparently the average slope rating is something like 113 or was. But that's really not the point. The point is there are courses that have CRs of around 75 and slopes around 150 and there are courses that have CRs around 75 with slopes of less 130. Aronimink is a course with a CR or around 75 (with a par of 70) that has a slope rating of less than 130. 

[Jim Nugent]

According to Golflink, Aronimink's course rating is 73.6.  Slope is 123. 

Are there courses with CR of 75 and slope under 130?  Can anyone i.d. some? 

BTW, the difference between 150 slope and 130 is not all that great on the actual playing field.  3.71 strokes on average.  i.e. bogey golfers should shoot about 3.71 strokes higher on the 150 slope course, compared to the 130 slope.  If they have the same CR. 

IMO the real point is that slope doesn't matter that much.  The number itself is confusing: it magnifies actual differences in scores by 5.381.  And I bet lots of golfers figure a course with 145 slope must be tougher than one with 130. 

Course rating does a lot better job of predicting what anyone should shoot.  Add Bogey rating and everyone gets an immediate clear picture of what challenge awaits scratch and average players. 

[Dan Herrmann]

Keep in mind that slope is that old term from 9th grade algebra.  It's the SLOPE of the line that shows the relative difference between a scratch and bogey golfer on a course.

It's also the reason that a GHIN of 20 will get more strokes on Pine Valley than he will at FDR in Philly, a course with a slope < 110.

Slope is the "m" in the old equation y = mx + b

[TEPaul]

"Are there courses with CR of 75 and slope under 130?  Can anyone i.d. some?"

Jim:

You have to remember that just a CR number like 75 is relative. A course with a CR 3.6 shots over its par is a high CR. Aronimink is a par 70. If it was a par 72 its CR would be 75.6. 


"IMO the real point is that slope doesn't matter that much.  The number itself is confusing: it magnifies actual differences in scores by 5.381.  And I bet lots of golfers figure a course with 145 slope must be tougher than one with 130. 

Course rating does a lot better job of predicting what anyone should shoot.  Add Bogey rating and everyone gets an immediate clear picture of what challenge awaits scratch and average players."
 

That's true, an awful lot of golfers think the slope rating indicates the difficulty of a course for everyone including the scratch golfer, and that is just not necessarily the case.

I've always felt that scorecards should also include any course's "Bogey" rating along with the "course rating" simply because if that was done more golfers might come to understand what SLOPE really is!

I think one of the reasons "bogey" ratings aren't included on scorecards is because there's so much on scorecards anyway and its a matter of limited space.

But if any handicap golfer is looking to determine what he should shoot on any course the "bogey" rating might help him to some extent but not all that specifically depending on his handicap. The so-called "Bogey" golfer which is used to determine any course's "bogey" rating is nominally between a 17 and a 22 handicapper.

[J. David Hart]

John Kirk, Thanks ever so much ! When you figure out how I should have
posed this question ......please let me know. Side note its the greens compounds that make Oakmont,....right?

[Jesse Jones]

Chambers Bay comes close to 75 CR and 130 Slope..
74.4 130 Navy Tees
76.9 135 Teal or Back Tees

[Jim Nugent]

You have to remember that just a CR number like 75 is relative. A course with a CR 3.6 shots over its par is a high CR. Aronimink is a par 70. If it was a par 72 its CR would be 75.6.

Is that true?  CR takes into consideration par?  If so, a course could add 5 or 10 yards or whatever to two 480 yard par 4's, turn them into par 5's, and pick up 2 extra strokes on its course rating. 

I don't know.  But thought CR looks at distance, hazards, difficulty of greens -- things besides par.  In my example above, the course might get a little harder with the modest extra yardage.  Two strokes harder sounds real unlikely though. 

[TEPaul]

"Is that true?  CR takes into consideration par?  If so, a course could add 5 or 10 yards or whatever to two 480 yard par 4's, turn them into par 5's, and pick up 2 extra strokes on its course rating." 

Jim:

No, CR is not the same thing as par. CR takes into consideration a course's "par" only in the sense of the relative difficulty of CR in relation to a course's par.

I'm not sure why it is that so many people have such a hard time understanding what SLOPE and CR actually mean. Some even think that a par 72 course is harder than a par 71 or par 70 course for some odd reason. CR is merely a number that a "scratch" player is expected to shoot on a course for handicap purposes. CR and "par" are not the same thing.

Certainly added distance can effect a course's par as well as its CR. Generally speaking in the "rating" process for men 22 yards adds an additional .1 of a stroke to a course's CR.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()