[J. David Hart]

High Slope Rated courses, private or public....any takes on the number of these in the US? "Pine Valley"ish (and more) Types of architectural demands. Member ability, "scratch" players, only?

[Jeff_Brauer]

I will bet there are more than a few!  I know my Colbert Hills is 151 or 152 from the tips and the Quarry at Giants Ridge is the same.  Both are the top rated public courses in their states and the highest slope ratings as well.

For those two, at least, they are playable from the mid tees and the slope rating is a lot less.

BTW, I would say the average slope rating for my courses is about 131 from the tips.  On the few slope rating sessions I have sat in on, its interesting process!  Quarry is probably higher than it should be because at the time it was rated, many areas were native, which later got mowed out when the course got closer to opening.

[J. David Hart]

Thanks Jeff, Did they succumb to the "whinning" and mow more? Public?
Colbert is public?
More what I'm getting at is the most demanding courses played by golfers that can play, not those that "water " it down for mom and the kids.

[Dan Herrmann]

Remember - slope needs to be combined with course rating to determine "difficulty" for the bogey golfer.

I'd love to see a 65 course rating with a 140+ slope.

[Tom Huckaby]

Remember - slope needs to be combined with course rating to determine "difficulty" for the bogey golfer.

I'd love to see a 65 course rating with a 140+ slope.

WHOA!  Dan, a course like that (assuming it's normal around par 72) would be easy as heck for the scratch golfer, and murderously hard for the bogey golfer.  Is that REALLY what you'd like to see?  What I search for is exactly the opposite - courses with high course ratings (thus tough for the scratch) and low slopes (thus not so penal-tough for the bogey).  Those to me are what ought to be striven for.

Slope is based on the difference between course rating and bogey rating.

High slopes should be utterly cryit down, methinks.

TH

[J. David Hart]

Thanks, guys. Me thinks my terms are not of yours. However, I suppose might be the % of golfers that just flat out prefer demanding / challenging courses, not just by length, but accuracy. How many Pine Valleys are there
in the US?

[Jim Nugent]

Dan Herrmann is right.  Slope by itself doesn't tell you all that much about how hard a course is for bogey players.  You have to know what the course rating is. 

An example.  Say a course has a slope of 155, but a course rating of 68.  Bogey rating would be around 97.  Now take a course with a slope of 130, but a course rating of 74.  Bogey there would be around 98.  The 2nd course, with a 130 slope, would play harder for bogey golfers than the 1st.  Even though slope at the first is 155. 

Most murderous of all for bogey golfers are courses with real high course rating and real high slope.  Without knowing any actual numbers, my guess is they often go hand in hand.  Are there any courses with 155 slope, but course ratings under 75?  Wonder what the lowest course rating is for a 155 slope?  The highest course rating? 

[Tom Huckaby]

Dan Herrmann is right.  Slope by itself doesn't tell you all that much about how hard a course is for bogey players.  You have to know what the course rating is. 

An example.  Say a course has a slope of 155, but a course rating of 68.  Bogey rating would be around 97.  Now take a course with a slope of 130, but a course rating of 74.  Bogey there would be around 98.  The 2nd course, with a 130 slope, would play harder for bogey golfers than the 1st.  Even though slope at the first is 155. 

Most murderous of all for bogey golfers are courses with real high course rating and real high slope.  Without knowing any actual numbers, my guess is they often go hand in hand.  Are there any courses with 155 slope, but course ratings under 75?  Wonder what the lowest course rating is for a 155 slope?  The highest course rating? 

Jim - that's all correct - slope in and of itself does not convey difficulty for either set of golfers, as it is based on the difference between CR and BR and thus could work out as you say.  However, in general, wouldn't you prefer high course rating and low slope to the opposite?  Scratch golfer can handle and should relish the challenge... bogey golfer needs a challenge for sure, but why unduly punish him, especially given what tends to make for high bogey rating are penal aspects?

Remember also that your examples likely don't exist in the real world.  To get a CR of 74 means either a long golf course or one with very penal aspects, and it's hard to believe in either instance it could also come out so relatively low in bogey rating.

But yes, in a pure sense, bogey rating shows difficulty for the bogey player, course rating difficulty for the scratch.  My belief is that slope has a definitely valuable purpose, but it is so grossly misunderstood (as a measure of difficulty and/or something to be proud of when it's high) that a perfect thing would be to downplay slope and put bogey rating on scorecards.  But we've discussed this many many times in here already.

TH

[Jim Nugent]

Tom, I know my example is unrealistic.  Maybe nonexistent.  Would be real interested to learn what the lowest course rating is for all courses with slopes over 150. 

I'd also like to know which courses would slope over 155, if they didn't cap the figure there.  If not for that max allowable figure, which course would have the highest slope, and what would it be?

ETA: I still think we should drop slope altogether.  Put Bogey Rating in its place. 

[Tom Huckaby]

Jim:

Well... I do know a course out here, one discussed fairly often here, initially came out and something close to 170 when we did the first course rating right after it opened.  After some discussion, and refiguring the numbers, the rating captain got it down to 153.  In the three years after this it has softened somewhat, but it is still a crazily-high slope even now.

As for getting rid of slope altogether, I can't get behind that - I do think it serves a valid purpose getting the proper course handicaps for each course.  Or at least let's just say I am a Knuthian disciple.  In any case, one can't simply get rid of slope and keep the rest of the system... it all turns on having slope.

What I do believe is what I said before - that we really should have Bogey Rating published and slope not at all, except on tables the club keeps so golfers know what course handicap to use.  Put BR on the scorecards and on websites.  But I've been pushing for that for years, and haven't made much traction.  What I need are more high profile names on board, like great golf course architects.
 

[TEPaul]

Jim Nugent:

I'm not sure I agree with your examples above about those two courses and which is harder for the bogey player. It depends what one means by hard----eg what the bogey player is expected to score (course bogey rating) or what kind of handicap adjustment he needs against a scratch player which is the point of slope.

In theory anyway, it seems to me the ideal course would tend towards a high course rating (scratch) and a relatively low slope. Aronimink in Philadephia is an excellent example of that.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jim Nugent:


In theory anyway, it seems to me the ideal course would tend towards a high course rating (scratch) and a relatively low slope. Aronimink in Philadephia is an excellent example of that.

Gee, wish I would have said that.  See above.
 

[Dan Herrmann]

Tom Huckaby - I was actually being facetious, but didn't do a good job of it.

I hate the CCFAD's that advertise their slope only and ignore the rating.  I'd much rather see them talk about course rating.  Or, better yet, just advertise the quality of the course and ignore the numbers.

[TEPaul]

TomH:

Maybe you said that above but I don't believe you thought of it. Ever hear about our saga at GAP a number of years ago with Aronimink in that vein? In my opinion, it was what finally convinced them to stop bugging our rating teams about their slope rating.

[Jim Nugent]

Jim Nugent:

I'm not sure I agree with your examples above about those two courses and which is harder for the bogey player. It depends what one means by hard----eg what the bogey player is expected to score (course bogey rating) or what kind of handicap adjustment he needs against a scratch player which is the point of slope.

By "harder" I mean which course he scores worse on. 

Can someone remind me how they use slope to make handicap adjustments? 

[Dan Herrmann]

The sad fact remains that the vast majority of golfers judge a course by its slope.

Lets look at French Creek vs. Merion East.

FC has a course rating from the tips of 73.0 and a slope of 140.  
Merion East has a course rating from the back tees of 72.4 and a slope of 142.

That alone tells you nothing.

Merion East is one of the top courses in the world.  French Creek, as nice as it is, isn't
-------------------------

Jim:
Here's how slope is used (from ghin.com):
Q:  I found my record and my Handicap Index® .  I am playing a course today with a different Slope Rating.  How can I figure out my Course Handicap for that round?

A:  Click on the "Course Handicap Calculator" link at the bottom left of your scoring record.  Input your Handicap Index® and Slope Rating. Click "Calculate Course Handicap" and your Course Handicap for that set of tees will appear. 

If you do not know the Course Rating and Slope Rating of where you are going to play, consider using the following link to look up that information:  http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/course_ratings/course_rating_lookup.asp This will take you to the USGA’s Course Rating and Slope Rating lookup.  This can also be helpful if you are trying to post a score online and you do not know the ratings.

[Jim Nugent]

Dan, not sure I understand this too well.  If all you do is plug some numbers into a computer, it shouldn't matter whether you use slope or bogey or anything else.  Just give the computer the right formula: it will make the calculations in a nano-second and spit out the correct number.

In the meantime, as Huck points out, Bogey rating shows everyone how the course should actually play for bogey golfers.  At least according to the raters.  Much easier to understand. 

I remember scores at Merion during medal play at the amateur a few years ago.  They averaged something like 78.  Maybe more.  No way the real course rating should be as low as 72.4.  Sounds like 77 or 78 is realistic. 

[J. David Hart]

Guys, Guys,..... Remember Phil Hartman (SNL anal rententive chef) what if we turn him loose here? I was not interested in the numbers game. When
I tee it up, I don't stand on the tee predisposed to make a bogey.  How many courses would there be in the US, or anywhere, that are private that have very demanding courses, because the cliental wants it the" tougher the better", and what architectural features make it so?? divots!

[J_ Crisham]

When playing at Butler National I think everyone is predisposed to make bogey on virtually every hole. The slope is in the 150 range and that is probably a bit light. I used to enjoy watching the tour players go at it with persimmon and balata. The only other course that I have played that is in the same league in difficulty is at Kiawah. Butler in my opinion is harder.

[TEPaul]

"Can someone remind me how they use slope to make handicap adjustments?"

Jim:

Golf courses vary in their degree of difficulty for handicap golfers in relation to the scratch golfer. Slope rates golf courses for that degree of difficulty differential with the use of a "Bogey rating" and "course rating" (scratch golfer). A handicap golfer then applies his handicap determined at his course to the Slope rating of any other course to adjust for degree of difficulty (handicap strokes) for handicap purposes only.

  

[Tommy Williamsen]

I don't understand slope at all.  I really don't see that much difference between a course with a 130 slope rating and one with 150.  Course rating makes more difference for me because it involves length.  I really don't get why PV has such a high slope.  The fairways are enormous and the greens, except for five, are generally large enough to hit.

[Cliff Hamm]

Tobacco Road would seem to have among the highest slopes for its course rating:

150   73.2
142    70.8
132    68.6
124    66.1


With a par of 71 this may be the highest slope with a course rating under par.

[Jason Connor]

It's ironic to me since a the course rating and only the course rating is the relevant number for a scratch golfer. 

A golfer touting his club's slope is really saying "I'm a bogey golfer."

[John Kirk]

J. David Hart,

The classic example of a private course that prides itself on difficulty is Oakmont.  The rating/slope is something like 77.4/150, even though I know that's not what you're interested in.

Oakmont is tough as nails.  Prohibitively difficult, without resorting to artificial water hazards or narrow playing areas.

Famous difficult California courses include PGA Stadium, Fort Ord Bayonet, and Spyglass Hill.

[Cliff Hamm]

So Oakmont has a course rating 4.2 shots more from the tips than TR with an identical slope.

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