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Matthew Hunt

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Interesting High Pointe video
« on: March 23, 2008, 05:48:15 PM »
I know Mr. Doak gets exposured  too much on this board...but what he hasn't figured is too stop it just needs to stop building great courses. Well this is a interesting clip about his first.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1Ef64EjCSs

Question to Tom while we are discussing him. I know I wouldn't be the first to compare you to a certain Leeds gentleman I feel your early work was comparable with his latter while your work this Century is more like his in the earlier (but better IMO) 'Cypress Point'. Do you feel this is true?

Matthew

Andrew Bertram

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Re: Interesting High Pointe video
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2008, 06:33:11 AM »
Thanks Matt

Excellent video.


Matthew Hunt

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Re: Interesting High Pointe video
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2008, 01:55:11 PM »
Bump.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Interesting High Pointe video
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2008, 08:08:48 PM »
Interesting video Matt thanks...

I guess perspective is always nice....I pulled this quote from the Feature Interview section from 1999!!

GCA : Which five courses in the world possess the most fascinating green complexes?


TD :
a) Pinehurst No. 2
b) St. Andrews Old Course
c) Crystal Downs
d) National Golf Links
e) and High Pointe!



Mark Bourgeois

Re: Interesting High Pointe video
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2008, 09:16:55 PM »
Thanks, Matthew.

What I take away is some things that might go into the concept of a learning curve for an architect:
1. Relationship of living things, specifically trees, to something that, although living, needs to be maintained in a state of rough stasis.
2. Bunker construction, specifically flashed faces as opposed to grass faces.  Here the curve sounds pretty flat; i.e., it takes a lot of experience and even then you might be better off finding someone with the talent to excel at it.
3. Agronomy, in this case fescues.

Re #3, maybe Joe Hancock or Tom D will see this and give us a little lesson on how much the issue was one of a learning curve vs. growing fescue in Michigan.

Mark


Joe Hancock

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Re: Interesting High Pointe video
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2008, 09:50:41 PM »
Mark,

The learning curve on fine fescue is still being plotted...and there are a lot of other guys much further along than I. Dan Lucas is one of the leaders in this regard, and maybe he'll see this as well. I may even call him tomorrow and ask him to chime in.

I have to say that this was a fun video for me to watch. I spent a couple days with TD, in NC, while I was an irrigation tech (I know, the irony of it all) and he was doing some photography work for Pete. He came to shoot Landfall, and through our couple days he asked me what I knew about fine fescue.....my answer? "Not a thing"...

He and Tom Mead did what they thought was the right thing at the time...and they almost made it work. I suspect if they had full control, the results would have been much more positive, but TD, rightly so, didn't get into that at the soire on video.

When I was building Emerald Vale, in Northern Michigan, there was some interest in doing fine fescue. I made a trip over to High Pointe to see what they had after several years. Well, it was a hot, humid summer, and after some years of mismanagement(from a fine fescue point of view) they had a large population of poa annua...an indication that it had been overwatered for some years. There was a lot of dead poa when I saw it, and some patches of fescue still alive. But, it was ugly and we went with bentgrass fairways at Emerald Vale.

The one thing that stuck out to me at High Pointe was that the back nine and the upper holes on the front still looked OK.....they were the holes comprised of sandy soil. At EV, we were dealing with abandon farm land, with rich, high organic soil. That increases the chance that poa will thrive and fine fescue will not, so that was what we based our decision on. Had we been a very sandy site, we likely would have gone with fine fescue.

The take home message is this: fine fescues are well suited to deprived soils, whereas most other turf types are not. The pendulum swings away from fine fescue success when the soils are slow draining and/or rich in organics and fertile.

Hope this helps,

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tom_Doak

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Re: Interesting High Pointe video
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2008, 09:02:29 AM »
Matt:

A friend told me this was out there somewhere ... interesting, since when it was taped, YouTube technology did not exist and I didn't imagine more than 75 people would ever see it.  Hope I looked okay (I am not going to waste my time watching myself speak).

I didn't really understand your question, though.  Cypress Point was pretty late in Dr. MacKenzie's career (six years before he passed away).

Kalen:

High Pointe's are still some of the best greens I've ever built.  I'm happy to admit that I have a certain bias there because I actually built them all myself, as opposed to collaborating with a shaper or an associate.  But, they reward position in the fairway more than nearly any greens I've built.

Mark:

I was making nice in that presentation because my original client, Mr. Hayden, was putting on the party, and without his willingness to take a chance on a rookie architect, I might be just another GCA fanatic without any idea what I'm talking about :) .  Mr. Hayden passed away a year ago.

I am glad we tried fescue fairways at High Pointe.  Without having done it, we might never have learned our lessons about what we did right and wrong, and places like Sand Hills and Whistling Straits (where Tom Mead consulted) and Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes and Barnbougle and Ballyneal might not have the great surfaces they do today.

High Pointe was a great place for fescue.  The soils for most of the property were very sandy and very acidic, and the climate mild, but the main reason we chose fescue was that Tom Mead and I both believed that for the green fee proposed in our early discussions about the project -- 45 dollars -- the superintendent would not be able to afford too much of a chemical budget, and a lean fescue maintenance program would produce better fairways than bentgrass without chemicals.  Of course, when they decided to try to get 80 dollar green fees out of the box, that decision was seen in a different light.

The reason the fescue failed was simply that the subsequent management of the course didn't try to keep the fescue intact.  They didn't topdress or aerify the fairways much at all, and they wound up thatchy, so they started watering more heavily.  The fairways on the back forty acres are spongy today ... it takes a lot of effort to dig through the thatch to get to the soil.  It's really remarkable that they managed to create such conditions on such perfect sandy soils.

As for bunker construction, the learning curve is not painfully long ... recently we've had some guys who learned how to build great bunkers after 3-4 months on a trackhoe.  But we didn't have time to do that, while Tom and I were also filling the duties of architect, shapers, project manager, owner's rep, and grow-in superintendent.  Even so, the bunkers at High Pointe weren't so bad, considering they have only been edged twice in nineteen years.

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