[Randy Thompson]

TE,
I donīt know much about history but I think the first automatic irrigation systems came out around 1957-58, pretty tough to grow grass on sand without automatic irrigation or have a whole bunch of people running around with quick coupler sprinklers. The problem in sandy conditions is establishing the root system but once established, they are so deep, that they can go long periods between waterings.

[TEPaul]

Randy:

The reasons for the agronomic problems on early Pine Valley are pretty well documented. It seemed that the natural sand surfaces drained so well there was a water retention problem. The truckloads of manure (and topsoil mix) that was brought in and mixed in apparently served both a nutritional and moisture retention purpose.

[Randy Thompson]

TE,
But the problems are esaily overcome today through automatic irrigation systems. The turf builds up and manufactures it own organic matter from grass clippings and root decay. Water retention is an intial problem but through frequent irrgations and the forming of root mass, infiltration rates and perculation rates decrease, thus more water retention and nutirent retention from the build of organic matter. We also have slow release fertilers now, that allow for gradual, slow feeding and not so subject to excessive leaching in sandy soils. You said you wanted to be educated, I am trying to that, I am not disputing that these clubs did not have problems, I am merely trying to educate you as to why those problems are past problems and not present.

[TEPaul]

"You said you wanted to be educated, I am trying to that, I am not disputing that these clubs did not have problems, I am merely trying to educate you as to why those problems are past problems and not present."


Randy:

Thank you, I appreciate that. As I told Joe, I don't know much about agronomy. But my real interest is in the fact of the history of architecture and golf agronomics and that the problems they faced back then with little idea how to solve them were as different back then compared to today as night and day. That is what I'm most interested in communicating on here, otherwise too many might assume they knew nearly as much back then as we do today about golf agronomics. My sense is that in 1910-1912 they didn't even know 5% of what we know today about golf agronomics and the massive initial agronomic failures at both NGLA and Pine Valley (two very sand based sites) is proof of that. 

Not to even mention their knowledge about grass types, agronomic disease causes and remediations were really rudimentary and immature back then compared to today.

The fact that they had no knowledge resource is pretty interesting too. That both Macdonald and Wilson and sometimes Crump turned to the US Dept of Agriculture (Piper and Oakley) which at that time was basically into botany and agricultural crops (not exactly golf course agronomy) is historically pretty interesting too.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Paul:

You've been to Sand Hills, haven't you?  Do you think they trucked in 3000 loads of topsoil for that place?

[TEPaul]

"You've been to Sand Hills, haven't you?  Do you think they trucked in 3000 loads of topsoil for that place?"

TomD:

I think I just mentioned the massive initial agronomic problems and the reasons for them of NGLA and Pine Valley in 1910-1915 and not Sand Hills in 1990.

Did Macdonald and Crump have to bring in thousands of loads of agronomic material enhancement on those sites after initially trying to grow grass on basically the straight natural sand mediums of those sites? I think you know the historic record shows they had to and did on both.

Have you ever read Alan Wilson's "after the fact" report in that vein on Plan A and Plan B that Pine Valley was faced with and how it played out? Macdonald's own record of NGLA indicates he brought in 10,000 cart loads of agronomic material enhancement after his initial grow in attempts.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

Sorry, I missed your reference to Sand Hills.

I've read a bit about the history of problems with National and with Pine Valley and how they were eventually solved.  But, that WAS 95 years ago.  Golf course grow-in guys have a few more tools at their disposal today -- like irrigation heads every 50 feet, and fertigation, and pump stations that spit out 2500 gallons per minute, and micronutrients, and last but not least, loads and loads of chicken poop to get the grass started.

I am not suggesting that this can overcome ANY problem.  When working in sand you have to be extra careful to try to preserve the thin layer of organic material that exists in the top inches of the soil/sand profile ... what Walter Woods used to call the "black gold" even though it was just a bit darker color of sand.  The great thing about minimalism at Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes is that we didn't disturb the soils over most of the site, so they were a lot easier to grow in.  I don't think Macdonald nor Crump thought too much about that factor in designing their ideal courses, until it was too late.

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