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TEPaul

Eye Candy or a representation of Nature?
« on: March 21, 2008, 09:10:17 AM »
There're a couple of very good threads on the first page (Chip Gaskin's and Mike Bowline's) on bunkering and the various philosophies of bunkering in golf and architecture.

Both of them brought to mind the issue of "eye candy" with bunkering vs a natural representation of nature through the architectural use of bunkering or sand area.

Those who criticize some bunkering as "eye candy" seem to have a test for it that goes something like---if bunkering is not strategically significant its excessive and therefore constitutes "eye candy".

On the other hand, from photographs such as those of natural sand-scapes on Chip Gaskin's thread it's very clear that raw Nature apparently has no contemplation of golf or golf architecture when she creates and arranges natural sand-scapes.

So my point is for a golf course to have the look of a natural sand-scape there necessarily will be plenty of sand formations in the shapes of bunkering that has no real strategic significance to any golfer and golf courses that have minimal bunkering placed rather scientifically simply for strategic significance in golf probably won't have the over-all look of natural sand formation arrangements.

In other words, some courses that have bunkering that some would label "eye candy" are probably closer to the look and arrangements of nature than courses that ONLY have bunkering placed scientifically for strategic significance to the golfer.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 09:16:07 AM by TEPaul »

Mark_Fine

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Re: Eye Candy or a representation of Nature?
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2008, 09:31:04 AM »
Tom,
Why can't "eye candy" and "a representation of nature" be the same thing?  I believe sometimes they are and sometimes it looks good and sometimes it doesn't  ;)  Where some of us see eye candy in a negative connotation is when features are added that offer little value in any regard except to push up maintenance costs. 
Mark

TEPaul

Re: Eye Candy or a representation of Nature?
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2008, 09:48:12 AM »
Tom,
Why can't "eye candy" and "a representation of nature" be the same thing?

Mark:

Obviously my own personal feeling is that it can. That’s why I said this above:

“In other words, some courses that have bunkering that some would label "eye candy" are probably closer to the look and arrangements of nature than courses that ONLY have bunkering placed scientifically for strategic significance to the golfer.”

TEPaul

Re: Eye Candy or a representation of Nature?
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2008, 09:56:19 AM »
"Where some of us see eye candy in a negative connotation is when features are added that offer little value in any regard except to push up maintenance costs."


Mark:

That's true and there shouldn't be any denying that or skirting the issue on our part.

In my opinion, negative "eye candy" can exist if an architect creates massive amounts of bunkering in areas that are not strategically significant and if those bunkers fall into the category of high maintenance "formal" bunkers.

But if areas of natural sand formations that are not strategically significant can be preserved that are not high maintenance that should be done or at least could be done without that much impact on maintenance dollars.

There are some courses I'm aware of that are not only considering this but are now into it. A few good recent examples are Friar's Head, The Creek Club and perhaps even Shinnecock.

This entire issue of less than formally maintained sand areas on golf courses that basically looks something like sand bunkering also obviously gets into another niggling issue for some clubs to deal with simply because of a sometimes enigmatic issue with the Rules of Golf. Obviously areas that people call "waste areas" or "waste bunkers" do not exist in the Rules of Golf as a definition or as a distinct area (other than "through the green"). Some clubs have a hard time dealing with this issue because of the problem of golfers not being clear on whether the Rules allow them to ground their club or not. 
« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 10:09:22 AM by TEPaul »

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Eye Candy or a representation of Nature?
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2008, 10:03:34 AM »
Tom

I know you've thought a lot of my recent posts have been strange but your excellent post here explains better some of what I have been so poorly trying to communicate.

I agree completely with your point, but I ask, whose definition of "natural"?

The point is that the mind's eye sees true nature at the beach or wherever.  It uses that as a template or heuristic for judging the "naturalness" of anything it sees.

So for man to replicate nature as you note he has to include "nonfunctional" bunkers; otherwise, he will see through any effort to hide the hand of man simply by replicating the style of nature and not the forms / topography / etc.

I had your epiphany in contemplating an old picture showing a bunker seen well behind the first hole at Alwoodley.  It helped the con.

Gotta go...

Mark

Sean_A

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Re: Eye Candy or a representation of Nature?
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2008, 10:11:15 AM »
"Where some of us see eye candy in a negative connotation is when features are added that offer little value in any regard except to push up maintenance costs."


Mark:

That's true and there shouldn't be any denying that or skirting the issue on our part.

In my opinion, negative "eye candy" can exist if an architect creates massive amounts of bunkering in areas that are not strategically significant and if those bunkers fall into the category of high maintenance "formal" bunkers.

But if areas of natural sand formations that are not strategically significant can be preserved that are not high maintenance that should be done or at least could be done without that much impact on maintenance dollars.

There are some courses I'm aware of that are not only considering this but are now into it. A few good recent examples are Friar's Head, The Creek Club and perhaps even Shinnecock. 


Tom

None of those clubs strike me as particularly worried about their maintenance budgets. 

If the sand exists naturally (I am thinking a desert is the most likely candidate these days) then sure, it seems crazy to go against nature and grass over areas that are very often not in play.  But then, these situations are in the extreme minority.  I see many more examples of sand whacked about the place with very little good reason other than archies/owners can't/won't think of anything else to slap in.  Whats wrong with grass? 

Concerning desert golf, how many archies have been given the opportunity to blend a course into the surrounds (as best as you can) and instead opted for sharp dilineations between course and nature?  I believe the same thing happens on seaside courses to a lesser degree.  For some reason, archies usually want to make it clear to the golfer where the course ends and nature begins.  This is what is so appealing about courses we say are so "natural".  They blend better with the surrounds than the usual course and this makes it easier for the golfer to ignore what he knows to be true.  Much of this suspended belief is based around the transition zones - in other words - the archie paying attention to details so well that the golfer doesn't even notice.

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

TEPaul

Re: Eye Candy or a representation of Nature?
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2008, 10:22:19 AM »
"I see many more examples of sand whacked about the place with very little good reason other than archies/owners can't/won't think of anything else to slap in.  Whats wrong with grass?"

Sean:

In my opinion, there's nothing at all wrong with grass. And I agree I see far too many golf architects just throwing bunkers at too many situations probably because they either can't or won't think of something else to do to accomplish some strategic purpose.

I'm no enemy of sand bunkers, I just think the best use of them in real quantity or on a large scale is on sites that do have natural sand. There are so many golf sites in this world that just don't have natural sand anywhere near them and to attempt to make natural looking dunes-scape bunkering something like those natural photos Chip Gaskin's posted is both a waste of time and money and its not a natural looking or feeling feature or arrangement on sites that have no natural sand, in my opinion. 

As for desert golf, I don't see any possible way for a golf course NOT to have a very stark juxtapostion between grass and sand areas in environments like that. Frankly, the same is true in naturally sandy areas such as the "lower" or "seaside" holes of The Creek Club. If the club does what we're recommending those holes will take on a look of both "island" fairways and greens in a sea of sand as they once were. This is the same look that much of original Pine Valley once had with some of their fairways and many more of their greens---eg they were islands of grass surrounded by sand areas of a non-formal arrangement.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 12:26:53 PM by TEPaul »

Sean_A

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Re: Eye Candy or a representation of Nature?
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2008, 11:19:22 AM »
"I see many more examples of sand whacked about the place with very little good reason other than archies/owners can't/won't think of anything else to slap in.  Whats wrong with grass?"

Sean:

In my opinion, there's nothing at all wrong with grass. And I agree I see far too many golf architects just throwing bunkers at too many situations probably because they either can't or won't think of something else to do to accomplish some strategic purpose.

I'm no enemy of sand bunkers, I just think the best use of them is on sites that do NOT have natural sand. There are so many golf sites in this world that just don't have natural sand anywhere near them and to attempt to make natural looking dunes-scape bunkering something like those natural photos Chip Gaskin's posted is both a waste of time and money and its not a natural looking or feeling feature or arrangement on sites that have no natural sand, in my opinion. 

As for desert golf, I don't see any possible way for a golf course NOT to have a very stark juxtapostion between grass and sand areas in environments like that. Frankly, the same is true in naturally sandy areas such as the "lower" or "seaside" holes of The Creek Club. If the club does what we're recommending those holes will take on a look of both "island" fairways and greens in a sea of sand as they once were. This is the same look that much of original Pine Valley once had with some of their fairways and many more of their greens---eg they were islands of grass surrounded by sand areas of a non-formal arrangement.



Some guys do a much better job with desert transitions than others, it does make a difference.  It isn't just the desert though.  I think heather surrounding bunkers in the heathland helps with transitioning the look of these bunkers to make them "belong".  If you look at many of the bunkers in the heathlands without heather they look like fish out of water - especially on flat sites.  For sure, sometimes these pop-up bunkers can look neat in a unique sort of way so long as they don't become too popular! 

I have come to accept that it is very difficult to make bunkers fit into a course, but this why I generally tend to like few bunkers and I like pot bunkers or blind bunkers.  This way the things aren't so intrusive visually.  If there is any sort of roll in the land sometimes these things can look fantastic. 

Below is an example of what I am talking about.  From here it is difficult to tell there are bunkers in the middle of the fairway.
 

From here you can see there are whoppers directly on the line with the pin.  An example of the best kind of bunkering aesthetically and strategically imo.


Ciao

 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Kalen Braley

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Re: Eye Candy or a representation of Nature?
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2008, 11:36:58 AM »
Tom Paul,

Great thread...and I think I agree with your basic premise because I didn't really find a question in your original post.

Building whispy blowout bunkers in an enviroment where they occur naturally as shown in Chips threads is always a great idea as they complement the natural "eye candy" ones.  But on the flip side, building such type bunker in a parksland course could look more out of place than just your ordinary average joe bunker...although I will concede, both really look out of place.  I think the tie-ins to what mother nature gave you in the 1st place is really the key to whether or not you can "sell" these to the golfer as at least "natural looking".

And this has always begged the question for me.  Should most parkland courses just forgo any bunkering at all if the desired goal is to create in the spirit of naturalism? Or is bunkering just burned into everyones brain that they are accepted in places when everyone knows they would never be naturally occuring?

Matt Waterbury

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Re: Eye Candy or a representation of Nature?
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2008, 11:59:17 AM »
Since my home club is built on an abandoned rock quarry, I've always argued that the bunkers should be blowouts that reveal rocks and gravel. Hard on the wedges, but certainly nore "natural" than sand.

Cheerio,
mjw

RJ_Daley

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Re: Eye Candy or a representation of Nature?
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2008, 12:43:41 PM »
I really like the example that Sean A. posted.  Where is that?

Quote
In other words, some courses that have bunkering that some would label "eye candy" are probably closer to the look and arrangements of nature than courses that ONLY have bunkering placed scientifically for strategic significance to the golfer.

The first course that comes to mind is Whistling Straits.  There, the eye candy is placed to emulate a coastal rugged dunes, but I don't think anyone is tricked into thinking it is naturalistic.   The kind of bunkering found throughout the Whistling Straits course is pretty consistent in theme, and yet, it just doesn't fool anyone.  There are both highly strategic and simply eye candy bunkering all over that course.

I've always felt that Dye's other course that I've played that I believe has a similar feel as to the playability is TOC at Kiawah.  There, I'm not so sure to what extent the somewhat out of the way sand areas that are not normally directly in play are strictly man-made as you look towards the hole nearest the ocean.  The holes that run near the back tidewater slough tend to have buffer waste areas that are in play.  But, the overall effect is that one can be fooled into having the naturalistic feeling at Kiawah as opposed to the extreme manufactured at WS.

A comparable in my view to WS is Arcadia Bluffs.  There, great internal and within play bunkers tend to be sod walled, and out of play areas tend to be free form MacKenzielike.  I always thought that is an interesting use of two bunker styles within the same course.  For me, it works to the extent that it is more pleasing to the eye than Whistling Straits.  I can't really explain why. 

Next, I'd look to courses like True Blue and many tidewater low country coastal presentations, that might also include TPC Sawgrass, Harbor Town, Bulls Bay, or even Doral that we are seeing on the tube this week.  They are all quite different in the eye candy style of bunker construction and theme.  Yet, all of them do have eye candy that define them as unique on to themselves.  I don't see any of them being totally courses where the bunkers are ONLY placed for strategy and direct playability features. 

None of the above fool me into thinking naturalistic environment.  In a way, I'm wondering if golfers are being aethetically conditioned via pretty pictures in golf-travel mags, and calendars and such, into thinking that any "look" that uses a bunker eye candy theme, is a "golf course" onto itself and its own expected and accepted genre as American high-maintenance and high priced golf.   :-\
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

TEPaul

Re: Eye Candy or a representation of Nature?
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2008, 12:49:33 PM »
"And this has always begged the question for me.  Should most parkland courses just forgo any bunkering at all if the desired goal is to create in the spirit of naturalism? Or is bunkering just burned into everyones brain that they are accepted in places when everyone knows they would never be naturally occuring?"

Kalen:

I think most of us, certainly most of us on here, do understand that sand bunkering is basically an automatic expectation amongst almost all golfers on any golf course no matter what the natural setting is or was. I think the proof of that is most of us could not name a half dozen decent courses in this world that do not have a single sand bunker. The most well-known of those seems to be Royal Ashdown Forest that actually has a royal proclamation on it that it cannot have any.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Eye Candy or a representation of Nature?
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2008, 01:11:51 PM »
Tom Paul,

I will certainly agree its an automatic expectation.  But I was hoping to look beyond that and ask, should it be an automatic expectation?  Is this a case of we accept it this way, only because this is what we always get?  Or is there something on a very fundamental basis to have bunkering on a course even when it flies in the face of a naturally occuring phenomen.

I've often wondered, if golf were invented in a parkland setting, and there were no bunkers, just ponds, trees, and vegetation to "protect" mother par, would "bunkering" only be found on sandy sites?  And would this bunkering be undesirable in the same way most on here view trees as undesirable?  Would sandy sites be considered marginal and fast and firm conditions in the same light that we now consider wettish soggy like conditions?

I know there is no real answer to any of this, but I guess I like to think about things in not so much what they are, but how in essence a "norm" became a "norm".  Is this making any sense?   :-[

Is the dog wagging the tail, or the tail wagging the dog?

Peter Pallotta

Re: Eye Candy or a representation of Nature?
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2008, 01:48:29 PM »
"This is the same look that much of original Pine Valley once had with some of their fairways and many more of their greens---eg they were islands of grass surrounded by sand areas of a non-formal arrangement."

TE - I think that only in rare cases (like the original Pine Valley) is there the potential to fully and successfully erase the dichotomy between strategic and non-strategic bunkering, and thus bring a truly naturalist look to a golf course.  Only in those rare cases does what the 'human eye' sees (on the site and its surrounds, consciously and not) actually MATCH what the 'golfing eye' has come to expect; in every other case, the human eye has to make allowances for what the golfing eye believes is necessary for the game to be played.  And so, most of the time our judgements about naturalism and artificiality actually come down to how many allowances we feel compelled to make, and/or to how much of an allowance we believe is acceptable. The so-called realists are prepared to allow for a wide berth; the so-called purists tend to limit that allowance to a bare minimum.  I've hesitated mentioning this for a long time, but for my tastes I don't think Dr. MacKenzie's bunkers are very natural looking at all, or even that they do a very good job of mimicing nature; in other words, I have to make more allowances for them that most others here seem to find necessary.  And the fact that his bunkers are so obviously and cleverly 'strategic' doesn't help in this regard; in fact, I think they hurt my human eye even more because of that.  (Is my reaction to his bunkers a matter of poor taste, or a real lack of knowledge and understanding on my part?) I think Mark B is close when he says that for the architect to hold the con and replicate nature, he has to include "nonfunctional" bunkers. But I don't think that holds the con because it actually makes the course seem more natural; I think it helps hold the con because it overwhelms the human eye with so much information that it simply capitulates to the golfing eye. And I say that because I'm convinced that the golfing eye actually GIVES meaning and strategic significance to ALL bunkers and features on a golf course, irregardless of whether the architect has intended that effect or whether those features are in THEORY strategic or non strategic.   

Peter   
« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 02:03:44 PM by Peter Pallotta »

TEPaul

Re: Eye Candy or a representation of Nature?
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2008, 02:21:35 PM »
"I know there is no real answer to any of this, but I guess I like to think about things in not so much what they are, but how in essence a "norm" became a "norm".  Is this making any sense?"


Kalen:

Of course it makes sense!

Furthermore, I don't think any of us should say or even assume that there is no answer to why sand bunkering became an almost automatic expectation on any golf course no matter its type of natural setting and certainly including those with virtually no natural sand such as a "parkland" setting.

If we simply look back through the entire evolution of golf course architecture I think the reasons why sand bunkering has virtually always been included becomes quite clear.

You said:

“I will certainly agree its an automatic expectation.  But I was hoping to look beyond that and ask, should it be an automatic expectation?  Is this a case of we accept it this way, only because this is what we always get?  Or is there something on a very fundamental basis to have bunkering on a course even when it flies in the face of a naturally occuring phenomen.”

If we look at original golf in linksland Scotland before the game and golf course architecture first began to emigrate out of Scotland we see virtually only sites that had natural sand and also natural formations that we call bunkers (the word “bunker” first appeared in the Rules of Golf in 1812, by the way). For that reason we can essentially conclude that sand bunkers and such were part of the game simply because they were always actually naturally existing, and for that reason were basically inevitable.

But then when golf and architecture began to emigrate out of Scotland it seems that some representation or interpretation of them were almost always done and even on sites that had no natural sand. At first they seemed to appear, particularly inland, in a shape and form closer to the look of some steeplechase jumps than to a natural linksland bunker look in golf. But the fact is they seem to have always appeared on golf courses.

Max Behr referred to them as that ‘odd vestige of linksland golf’ that was not natural to inland sites with no natural sand but hung on in architecture nonetheless. It would not surprise me if a lot of that had to do with that old Linksland jibe on and criticism of the first inland courses outside Scotland of “Nae links, nae golf”. It would not surprise me if those early inland golfers took that slight somewhat seriously and did something about it such as the inclusion of man-made sand bunkers (or some of the odd formations with sand in them that passed for sand bunkers back then ;) ).

There may be another interesting reason sand bunkers were always an expectation in golf and architecture even on sites that had no natural sand and that is the fact that around 1850 the first real prohibition in the Rules of Golf against actually touching sand with a golf club began to be developed (the first prohibition was not against touching sand but against making ‘an impression’ in it). For that reason the challenge or demand of hitting a shot from sand probably became something that was basically standardized and institutionalized in golf and its architecture via the game’s Rules! If that were the case, even somewhat, most all golfers and architects of almost any time or era probably felt that particular challenge in golf must be maintained! And obviously the only way to do that would be to continue to include sand in bunkers on any golf course anywhere despite its natural setting---eg natural sand or no natural sand.


« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 02:32:23 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Eye Candy or a representation of Nature?
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2008, 02:44:22 PM »
"And so, most of the time our judgements about naturalism and artificiality actually come down to how many allowances we feel compelled to make, and/or to how much of an allowance we believe is acceptable. The so-called realists are prepared to allow for a wide berth; the so-called purists tend to limit that allowance to a bare minimum."

Peter:

I agree with you. It's interesting to see the latitude or limitation of those allowances any golfer or golf analyst is willing to make. Some seem to accept most anything at all they find on a golf course, natural or artificial while the ultra purist might feel constrained to limit it all the way down to what Behr referred to as "those few unnatural elements necessary to the game of golf"----eg tees, fairways and greens.

The thing that interests me the most is some of my ultra purist friends seem to also include the sand bunker in that allowance of what is necessary to golf even if there's no natural sand within a hundred miles!  ;)

I think some of them probably rationalize sand bunkers that way simply because they're aware they have basically always been part of golf. Others, including architects who are real purists might rationalize it simply because sand bunkering has become part of their primary artistic expression! For that reason alone sand bunkers are probably just hard to give up on.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 02:46:41 PM by TEPaul »

Adam Clayman

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Re: Eye Candy or a representation of Nature?
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2008, 02:45:50 PM »

As for desert golf, I don't see any possible way for a golf course NOT to have a very stark juxtapostion between grass and sand areas in environments like that.



Tom, If I read you correctly, you don't see any way to transition to the native areas, with anything other than a str8 line of demarcation.

I have seen a couple of ways to make that transition less stark, more aesthetic and IMO, intelligently done.

One, gradually transitions the color of the turf from green to brown, as it approaches the native.  The other is more subliminal, using clumps of turf (like a fescue) that dots the transition area like an impressionists painting.

Both work quite well, with the former yielding a more predictable playability, while the latter often yields more unpredictable lies, as balls sometimes will get hung up on the backside of one of the clumps.  

I know in my heart of hearts that I prefer the latter, while I suspect most golfers just can't deal with the adversity of the latter. Too bad so many managers insist on a green throughout appearance, because both methods only enhance the golfing experience because they make the attempt to simulate a somewhat natural progression.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 02:50:50 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

TEPaul

Re: Eye Candy or a representation of Nature?
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2008, 02:58:30 PM »
"Tom, If I read you correctly, you don't see any way to transition to the native areas, with anything other than a str8 line of demarcation."


Adam:

Of course I do, it's probably just that personally I'm not sure I even see the need for that in a desert setting with a golf course.

By that I mean in the general context of "naturalism" or "site naturalism" the whole idea of a golf course in a desert setting is so incongruous to me anyway as far as the naturalism of grass necessary for the game of golf.

Don't forget, there were massive areas of sand in the original pre-architecture linksland but there was also those fascinating NATURAL "swards" of natural bent and fescue interpersed amongst those sandy linksland areas.

Desert areas have never ever had any of that bent or fescue natural sward area inherent in the old natural linksland except in someone's conception of a mirage!  ;)

« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 03:00:36 PM by TEPaul »

Adam Clayman

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Re: Eye Candy or a representation of Nature?
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2008, 03:15:05 PM »
Tom, My examples are from High Desert courses, where there are areas that have plant life. Your definition of desert sounds like a true desert, where very little can grow,  and where golf would come off like teets on Pat Mucci. Or, Wolf Creek.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 03:20:06 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

TEPaul

Re: Eye Candy or a representation of Nature?
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2008, 03:21:12 PM »
Adam:

Could be. I'm definitely no expert on desert golf. Nice to know there's something called a "high desert" though. Is that the same basic thing as "High Plains" and was Clint Eastwood just a "High Plains Drifter" or did he do some drifting in the "High Desert" too?

Kalen Braley

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Re: Eye Candy or a representation of Nature?
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2008, 03:42:43 PM »
Tom Paul,

Thanks for the response, I think that was very well put even though it doesn't completly satisfy my thirst for validation of bunkering on courses where sand isn't naturally occuring.

Yes playing from sand became apart of the rules in golf, but so did playing from other various hazards like railroad tracks, streets, water hazards, etc, etc.  But I don't see these as being "integral" to golf course design.  So I don't know if I really buy the rules explanation as a de facto way of it becoming accepted wherever golf is played.

Seeing those pictures of desert golf got me thinking about what feels sometimes like a GCA.com hypocrisy.  For the most part, Matt Ward being the biggest exception, desert golf is critized for its location in....well the desert.  I often hear the arguement about grass or vegetation not naturally occuring there...and they are right.  But the hypocrisy comes in as it relates to fully accepting and not questioning bunkers on a course which is completely non-occuring on several inland/parkland courses.


Kirk Gill

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Re: Eye Candy or a representation of Nature?
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2008, 04:38:48 PM »
...I'm convinced that the golfing eye actually GIVES meaning and strategic significance to ALL bunkers and features on a golf course, irregardless of whether the architect has intended that effect or whether those features are in THEORY strategic or non strategic. 

Peter, as always you express a most interesting notion.

The better player is probably more experienced in deciding which hazards are of strategic interest to his game than the lesser player, who is capable of spraying a shot into any sand pit you might create, at any location. The golfing eye of the good player hones in more specifically than the fearful generalist eye of the hacker.

Quote from: Kalen Bradley
Seeing those pictures of desert golf got me thinking about what feels sometimes like a GCA.com hypocrisy.  For the most part, Matt Ward being the biggest exception, desert golf is critized for its location in....well the desert.  I often hear the arguement about grass or vegetation not naturally occuring there...and they are right.  But the hypocrisy comes in as it relates to fully accepting and not questioning bunkers on a course which is completely non-occuring on several inland/parkland courses.

"We're all part of the same hypocrisy"
                                         -Michael Corleone

I agree with what you're saying Kalen. The "Natural/Unnatural" debate has been kicked around on here for a long time, and I don't mean to revisit that debate. However, the use of sand bunkering is a vital part of that discussion - not just because of the placement or the appearance of the bunker, but because of the nature of the substance itself, and the effect it has on a golfer trying to hit out of it.

It seems as if there was another naturally-occurring substance that would be usable on a golf course to create areas where golfers will have to deal with the unique difficulty of hitting out of that substance, it would already have been discovered and would be in use. I suppose hard-pan would be one example, but I don't know how often that is intentionally used, or if it comes up more because of maintenance issues and is otherwise found outside of the limit of the course itself. Given the tradition of sand use, is there any reason for architects or others to seek out different natural substances to use instead?
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Bradley Anderson

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Re: Eye Candy or a representation of Nature?
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2008, 06:25:31 PM »
Abundant sand bunkering on a naturally sandy site can be eye candy, but only when it is shaped into forms that are not like what nature has formed in that environment. The sand forms on Long Island differ from the sand forms in Nebraska, as do the sand forms in Bandon.

That's the genius of Pine Valley and Shinecock: the bunkering at Shinecock and the sand waste areas at Pine Valley are not extraneous or eye candy because they are so much like the other land froms that are natural in that environment. But if you transported Nebraska sand forms to Pine Valley, or Shinecock I think that would be eye candy.

Every golf course exists in an environment, and the best golf courses reflect the environment they are in. To that I would add that nearly every environment has something really wonderful to offer golf. It so often said on here that flat land is not good for golf. But there are a lot of cool things that can be done architecturally that are possible on a flat site.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Eye Candy or a representation of Nature?
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2008, 10:25:19 PM »
Nice post, Bradley.

Kirk - you might be right about that, ie. that the good player discounts more features than the poor one. But RJ mentioned Whistling Straits earlier, and I was thinking about that course and other Pete Dye courses. He's been designing courses to test tour professional for many years, and it seems to me he's not afraid to use extraneous features to try to throw them off their games. 

I'm not sure that all features don't have some affect at least. Imagine a fairway bunker on the left side, in the actual fairway but only a hundred yards off the tee. Wouldn't you and I and most other golfers wonder -- at least for a little while -- what it was doing there and what it might mean (e.g. perhaps as some directional aid, hinting at the preferred line)? Is a bunker a hundred yards off the tee 'strategic'? Not in any practical sense,  and yet we can't help pondering what it might 'mean'   

But in any event, for golfers at all levels I think the 'human eye' most often simply has to agree to capitulate to the golfing eye if there's to be any pleasure to be had on a golf course.  Of course, maybe I'm confusing a 'generalists eye' with the broader concept of the human eye...

Peter
« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 10:49:25 PM by Peter Pallotta »

TEPaul

Re: Eye Candy or a representation of Nature?
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2008, 10:38:47 PM »
"Thanks for the response, I think that was very well put even though it doesn't completly satisfy my thirst for validation of bunkering on courses where sand isn't naturally occuring."

Kalen:

You're welcome. We do know that sand bunkering has basically always been used on golf courses even those that have no natural sand. There has to be some legitimate reasons that happened. I doubt it was just accidental or coincidental. What do you think the reasons are?

Are you aware of the evolution of golf into "park" or "parkland"?

« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 10:41:51 PM by TEPaul »

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