Too sandy...or just right?

[Chip Gaskins]

This is the land I picked out to build my golf course (obviously, post lottery winning).

We had a thread a while back (Pac Dunes #13) where we talked about how grass will grow in pure sand. 

Looking at these pics would you say this site was doable? Or too sandy?

[Joe Hancock]

Beautiful land, and yes, grass will do just fine on it.

It looks like a fragile ecosystem that would need to be handled with care if golf was ever to be part of it's future.

Joe

[Bill Gayne]

Outer Banks of North Carolina?

[TEPaul]

Chip:

If anyone is interested in seeing exactly how to mimic nature in bunker design and construction those photos of yours above show it to a tee. I have hundreds of those photos mostly taken on a stretch of land on the old AIA between Jacksonville and Amelia Island Florida.

In my opinion, the deal is not just how naturally beautiful those formations are but how varied and random they can be too.

Most of my photos of that stretch of land are of natural sand formations that I think serve as a fantastic example for natural bunker design in golf architecture but a couple of years into photographing that stretch of land I came to realize it offered something else too for golf architecture. That was the beautiful lines and curves and random shapes created by the coastal and intercoastal waterways that wind through the natural aquatic vegetation. If one just squints one's eyes the waterways represent the lines of random fairways naturally bracketed by something else which one would need to avoid if on a golf course.

The entire wholly natural setting just represents all the formations and shapes of what really natural golf and golf architecture would be. If an architect wants to truly mimic the shapes and formations of nature all he has to do is basically copy natural settings like these.

[Matthew Hunt]

Its good, pre current-change and the decline of Rabbits RCD was sander than that.

Cool place for a course can see holes forming in my head

[John Burzynski]

Looks to me like a great 'lay of the land' area for a course.  The dunes and sand formations would look so natural on a course, and it looks so close to the water that the views would be amazing.

Just so you don't have any wetlands or endangered specie protected areas that are not able to be developed.  Nothing worse to me than a forced carry over 200 yards of federally protected wetlands.

[Ray Richard]

Looks like Sandy Neck on Cape Cod. If Trump can do it in Aberdeen,Scotland as he says, I would say it would be doable, although you may need to hit the lottery twice to pay for it.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Chip

Great photo’s and the site has indeed great potential, however it’s not ready yet, unless you intend to spend two lottery wins. A little gentle terraforming (re grass) may be the first order of the day.

A natural setting indeed.

[TEPaul]

Chip:

Sites with that much sand sure can be used for golf but you sure can't just grow the type of grass necessary to play golf on them without bringing in a ton of topsoil.

That is precisely what both Macdonald and Crump did not seem to at first understand when they tried to initially "grow in" both NGLA and Pine Valley.

[Adam Clayman]

Tom, Sand is different everywhere. The organics that are needed to grow a quality turf sward may or maynot be present in the pictures posted.

Here's a good sandy story that transpired this week.

When Corey Crandall moved here from Mullen he had purchased a train wreck of a golf course. It had more dirt and weeds than grass. Well, he needed a lot of sand. At about that time, Lake Mac was receding to it's lowest levels ever seen. The parks and rec dept kept moving boat ramps further and further onto areas that had once been 30-40 feet under water. The only problem was the dept of parks and rec didn't know what to do.  Along come Corey and he suggested they needed to dredge the sand that had accumulated under the boat ramp and was willing to take it off their hands. Corey got 14 truck loads and the lake got it's most utilized boat ramp back. The wind up is, that sand is perfect sand. Plenty of organics. But now the word is out and all the other golf courses are getting Corey's sand.

One other example of the organics in that sand is a guy who hunts for Morrels every year. He says he usually gets about bag (lb.) full, that just grow out of the sand. Last year, he said he hit the mother load, harvesting over 30 lbs of the fungi just growing on the beach.

Lake Mac is a sight to see. The whitest sand seen this side of ANGC.
 








 

[Joe Hancock]

Chip:

Sites with that much sand sure can be used for golf but you sure can't just grow the type of grass necessary to play golf on them without bringing in a ton of topsoil.

Tom,

How many cases of Malbec to you want to wager on that last statement?

 

[Randy Thompson]

You should do some soil test but most likely the native sand will be an ideal medium for growing turfgrass. When Pine Valley was built there was not the no how that exists today. My guess is that there is a ninety to ninety five percent chance that the sand will be excellent for turfgrass growth and normally these sites are the most inexpensive site in relation to over all construction cost. Get a team in there with experience to preserve and protect what was was done by mother nature and you will have sucsess and at a very economical price. Youy will get a lot of opinions on this thread but listen to the persons that have done it. I believe Tom Doak will back up what I am saying, especially in relation to cost.

[Kalen Braley]

Chip,

I'm not in the industry, but after reading what I have, its my understanding that all you need is a whole bunch of modified chicken poop and you can grow grass in pretty much any type of sand.

[Will MacEwen]

Chip,

I'm not in the industry, but after reading what I have, its my understanding that all you need is a whole bunch of modified chicken poop and you can grow grass in pretty much any type of sand.

Suggested name for such a course:  Chicken Salad G&CC.

[Chip Gaskins]

then again, there is a saying out there...."you can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit", but maybe you can here

[cary lichtenstein]

Chip:

If anyone is interested in seeing exactly how to mimic nature in bunker design and construction those photos of yours above show it to a tee. I have hundreds of those photos mostly taken on a stretch of land on the old AIA between Jacksonville and Amelia Island Florida.

In my opinion, the deal is not just how naturally beautiful those formations are but how varied and random they can be too.

Most of my photos of that stretch of land are of natural sand formations that I think serve as a fantastic example for natural bunker design in golf architecture but a couple of years into photographing that stretch of land I came to realize it offered something else too for golf architecture. That was the beautiful lines and curves and random shapes created by the coastal and intercoastal waterways that wind through the natural aquatic vegetation. If one just squints one's eyes the waterways represent the lines of random fairways naturally bracketed by something else which one would need to avoid if on a golf course.

The entire wholly natural setting just represents all the formations and shapes of what really natural golf and golf architecture would be. If an architect wants to truly mimic the shapes and formations of nature all he has to do is basically copy natural settings like these.

Chip and TEPaul:

I have been trying to make exactly this point for course architects to do in dead flat Florida and other uninteresting placing. Your posts + the pictures are a treasure trove and should be on the first page of any 101 Golf Course Architect book and on the wall of every draftsman.

You have put into pictures and words what I could never successfully communicate to others.

Brilliant!!!!

[Chip Gaskins]

a few more of the same site:









the northern border of the property has a lot of wirey brush (kind of like gorse)

the east side of the property is ocean

the south side is very sandy with very nice blown out dunes

the west side is less sandy, has one low stop with a small (less than 30 yards wide) pond/pool that i am sure has some kind of endangered owl/frog/beetle/grasshopper 

[Kalen Braley]

Looks great Chip...

And if I was calling the shots, I'd leave that blowndown wooden fence right where it is and incorprate it into the golf course.  Perhaps a donut shaped green with old fence bits in it??  OK OK...I won't quit my day job! 

[Scott Witter]

Ray R.  I too thought of Sandy Neck, but then in the last couple of pictures I saw some architecture off to the right, then I really thought of Sandy Neck, without question that aperas to  be an east coast line.

Chip, you have spent enought time on this site to know there are several key elements, factors, parameters that you'll need besides a site that LOOKS good.  How about fresh water, kinda one of those nasty requirements.  I wouldn't be too worried about sand at this point, Joe Hancock is right, the sand would likely be just fine.  You have to remember, the plants you see growing there now are doing fine on their own...when you put timely water and a good balance of fertilizers, etc, the right grasses will love it   Looks like a solid site for F&F to me.

The apparent scale of the 'dunes' seem smallish and not a lot of topo change that I can see, but still very workable to carefully carve in great golf with the right vision.  I could see some very inspiring yet subtle golf happening there with salt marshes dashed in here and there.  It clearly lends itself to the popular waste/blowout hazards this site appreciates and I could see the tie ins to the existing site being slowly transitional and quiet to further enhance the shoreline naturalness it possesses.

Even though a major inheritance might be involved, I would keep this site on your radar, depending on other factors, you may really have a winner here

[Bill Gayne]

If these dunes are where I think there are (on the atlantic side of the Outer Banks of North Carolina) the course would need to be routinely rebuilt after seasonal storms. As evident from the picture below the dunes simply aren't high enough to stop storm surges. In a storm prone area such as the Outer Banks to build directly on the Atlantic Coast would probably require high dunes on a bluff. Something similar to the West Coast of Ireland.

Also as Scott points out Water would be a significant issue in this location.

And if all that didn't stop you the damn horseflies just might.

[Chip Gaskins]

the dunes in some parts of the eastern property border are as much as 15-20 ft high in places, but honestly no match for a strong storm.

is the pure sand a blessing and impediment?  i assume the more sandy the soil the more water you need to keep the grass alive in the summer.

could i not use salt water tolerant grass types?  or are they just not as good to play on?

i find it hard to believe this sand would pack down hard enough to see a ball bounce....but maybe so.

[Tom Jefferson]

Chip:

Sites with that much sand sure can be used for golf but you sure can't just grow the type of grass necessary to play golf on them without bringing in a ton of topsoil.

Tom,

How many cases of Malbec to you want to wager on that last statement?

 

Joe, I want some of that bet you got goin with TPaul! 
All the turf here at Bandon Dunes, and NO topsoil brought in, just the straight sandy stuff.     Perfect for the fescues/bents...the deeper the sand the better.

We do amend before planting with gypsum, compost right on top (about an 1/8th inch), and organic fert......and probably will do without the compost for Old Mac, as the hydroseed mulch serves to hold the moisture needed for germination.

Tom

[Chip Gaskins]

it rains a lot more in bandon than where this site is....

it sounds like water could be the deal breaker

[Randy Thompson]

Chip,
With sand you have good drainage and your halfway there to growing good turf. The ball will bounce in the future once the sand is compacted through irrigation and mixed with root mass. Water is a key issue and will depend on the outcome if you have the other winning half of the formula. Water problems can be overcome and normally in an economical fashion, one, though the use of increased salt tolerant paspalms if the site is in a warm season climate. Bermuda also adapts with time to salty water conditons up to a point and if you get some monthly rains that flush the accumulated salts from the sand root base, this too becomes a blessing. The least salt tolerant grasses are cool seasons grasses but there still are economical options and alternatives to explore that can overcome problems in relation to water. We did a project on the coast in sand, average three inches a year of rainfall and comes in a three month time span..and a quarter inch is a downpour for the area, so no flushing, soil cleaning rains and salty water only available. I remeber once visiting a site in Tahiti and the water table was twelve inces from the surface and the site was parallel to the ocean. Local natives were growing water melons. The surface water on these sites is salty but good enough to grow sweet watermelons, so why not turfgrass? What we did on the costal project in Chile was to make a manifold of shallow wells and draw the water slowly from the top and in various different areas throughout the project. We had to add a sulfur burning plant to inject sulfuric acid into the water to control the PH and to avoid the carbonates from building up the soil and causing the internal drainage of the sand to plug and gradually decline. Give me my choice between a rocky site, a clay or swampy site and a sandy site with water problems and I will take the sandy, salty water site everytime.(from a turfgrass standpoint and also overall devlopment cost) Investigate your water alternatives and test, investigate your climatic conditions, test the peculation rate of the sand and the particles size distribution and move forward without fear. All the negatives you are hearing on the thread, use them to negotiate a better price on the land if you have not closed on the property, thats what there good for, not much else! Checking also to what point previous storms have entered into the property is also great, valuable advice! Good luck!

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
How many cases of Malbec to you want to wager on that last statement?"


Joe:

I wouldn't want to bet a single bottle of wine. But I would like an education in this kind of thing. As you know I don't know much about agronomics or even the history of it but I have followed closely some of the historic problems early architects and courses had with it and why.

It is an historic fact that both NGLA and Pine Valley were not able to grow and sustain grass on the natural sand surfaces of their sites and it is an historic fact that both Macdonald and Crump did not seem to understand that very well at first. That was the very reason for a few really massive early agronomic failures on both courses.

Joe, I'd also love to hear your opinion on something. Take a look at the first photo in Chip Gaskin's post #16----the one that seems to have more convex sand formations. Why do you suppose that natural grass in that photo is growing on the convex high points of those sand formations and not in the concave lower points of those sand formations?