[Brent Hutto]

I'm with Sean. Looks like three levels there which is probably about as much interest as one could hope for given the circular overall shape.

I'd have to play the hole a few times to say but it's certainly possible to have some interesting yet subtle breaks in a relatively flat green, if it routinely plays very fast. I also like boldly contoured greens at somewhat slower speeds but the fast/small-slope model can produce an outstanding putting challenge just as surely as the slower/large-slope type.

To me it's like choosing between firm sand and soft sand greenside bunkers. You can have either kind on a thoughtfully bunkered course and playing out of them requires slightly different technique. I personally prefer playing from sand that packs down firmly but can enjoy courses with either type. Same with putting surfaces. I prefer bolder contours even if it means keeping the speeds moderate but I also enjoy playing on very fast, flatter greens.

The presumption in this thread is that if greens are flat enough for water to form large sheets then those greens are inferior. What a sadly limited view of the situation.

[Jon Wiggett]

The presumption in this thread is that if greens are flat enough for water to form large sheets then those greens are inferior. What a sadly limited view of the situation.

I am not presuming this Brent but if all the greens need to be flat due to the excessive speed then yes it is inferior and boring GCA.

[Dan Kelly]

Dan, Jeff - what I see in the photo is this:

Even though one of the essentials for a golf course (built outside, in nature) to remain playable (in the rain, which tends to fall outside) is for the greens through slopes and contours to repel and drain the rain water away, the green in this photo does the exact opposite, not repelling but instead allowing (even encouraging, it seems) the rain water to pool on that most important/crucial area of the field of play, the green. (You can play golf pretty easily off soggy fairways, but you can't really putt through standing water.)  And the water is pooling there instead of being shunted and drained away via slopes and contours -- again, a basic requirement for a game played in nature -- for the very simple (but completely out of whack) reason that flatter greens with less contour/slopes can today be mowed down to within a inch of their lives and produce the much-vaunted stimp numbers that USGA and private club types seem to have wet dreams about.  Whoever designed/re-designed this green has put an idea/ideal/fantasy of the ego (speed, more speed, that's what impresses) ahead of a practical and time tested requirement of the game. IMHO of course.

Peter    

Peter --

Thank you.

Can't say that I agree with you, but I appreciate the elucidation of your views.

I think there are plenty of perfectly good greens on which water would pool, when the rain is coming down as hard as it appears to be coming down in that picture. And I don't think you can judge, from that one picture, how that green actually drains or actually plays.

I'd reply to your views with TE Paul's line -- about golf course design being a great big world, in which there is room for all sorts of stuff: fast, slightly tilted greens; slow, roller-coaster greens; slow, slightly tilted greens; fast, roller-coaster greens; round greens, oval greens, square greens, amoeboid greens -- all of them in nature, yes, but, like the rest of the game's courses, completely unnatural.

Dan

P.S. All of my golf dreams are dry dreams.

[David Bartman]

 Do you agree that keeping some of the most sloped of older greens  at green speeds in excess of 10,11,12 on the stimpmeter , leads to greens that are sometimes unplayable and certainly not to the original designers intent.

David,

I was just making the point that obsession with green speeds and score are killing the game. For me the highlighted sentence is pointing the finger at the wrong thing. The green slope is playable, it is the speed that is not.


I am pretty sure that we are on the same page, when I refer to keeping greens at speeds in excess of 10 leading to unplayable conditions and not the original intent of the designer, I too and saying that the green speeds are too high. 

Specific to 16 at PT, and TD's renovation, I am curious if he softened the slopes, knowing full well that green speeds are here to stay at least for awhile.  If a GCA knows speeds are going to be in excess of 10, I assume he won't design greens that will cause the average golfer to putt balls off the green due to excessive slopes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat
Lighten up francis
I am not talking about the drainability of the green, but the flat surface that is clearly illustrated to my eye

Mike,  that green is anything but flat !

It's the volume of water inundating the green, not the slope.

That's why you can't base an analysis of a golf course on photos that don't reveal ALL of the information.

[Sean Leary]

FWIW, I have seen the greens at Bandon Dunes under that that much water as well. Teed off in sunshine and walked in after 5 (not the best place to walk in from) because the greens were under water. The fairways were playable, not underwater.

If it can happen there, it can happen anywhere........

[Chris_Hufnagel]

FWIW, I have seen the greens at Bandon Dunes under that that much water as well. Teed off in sunshine and walked in after 5 (not the best place to walk in from) because the greens were under water. The fairways were playable, not underwater.

If it can happen there, it can happen anywhere........

The worst water I have seen on the greens at Bandon Dunes has always been on Bandon Trails...I have been able to play golf in the worst weather on the other three courses, but have had standing water/puddles on Trails several times now...

[Steve Okula]

I'd be interested to know what is the rate of precipitation at the moment of that photo. A heavy downpour can temporarily overwhelm the surface runoff of any green, unless the entire surface is on a 10% slope or something otherwise unplayable

There may well be the same amount of water on the fairways as the green in that photo, but it's not visible due to the higher cut. The fairways are mowed at about 1/2 inch and the greens at 1/8.

No water is visible in the bunkers because water infiltrates faster into open sand than through a layer of sod.

[Jon Wiggett]

David,

thanks for clarifying your point of view

Jon

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