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Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ballyneal is the real deal!
« on: March 06, 2008, 02:35:44 AM »
I enjoy ratings, but in the end it is the essence of the course that matters.  There are some surprising rankings--both low and high on the Golfweek list.  In the category that matters, this course is a masterpiece and I hope that those who have the opportunity will recognize greatness.


































David Whitmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal is the real deal!
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2008, 07:50:35 AM »
Great pictures Robert. I will be going there the end of June, and I hope to reach the same conclusion about the golf course as you did.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Ballyneal is the real deal!
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2008, 08:45:12 AM »
Robert,

Thanks for the terrific pictures.   The course looks to be great fun.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Ballyneal is the real deal!
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2008, 09:34:17 AM »
My thanks too, Robert.

For me, the 5th and 6th pictures capture something especially pleasing, but I can't put my finger on it. To say that those holes in particular seem to have been "found" doesn't quite get it, or go far enough. Maybe it's how the 3-dimensions tie into -- but extend far beyond -- the field of play.  It makes the 'vista' even more interesting and engaging.

Anyway, thanks.

Peter

Can someone tell me what holes pictures 5 and 6 are, how they play etc. Thanks.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2008, 09:46:51 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal is the real deal!
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2008, 09:39:09 AM »
This course just looks too wonderful to be true.  Folks are truly blessed to have an opportunity to play here on any sort of a regular basis.  I honestly haven't seen photos of another course which look more impressive.  Cheers.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

John Kavanaugh

Re: Ballyneal is the real deal!
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2008, 09:53:21 AM »
Ballyneal is so superior in design to Pacific Dunes that it is sick.  Stop waiting for your package invite with Sand Hills and get out to see it before your true intentions are revealed.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal is the real deal!
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2008, 09:56:18 AM »
There's no doubt in my mind that Doak and crew put their hearts and souls into this project. They had the sandy medium and created one of the most fun mediums for the sport. The amazing thing one learns is that EVERYTHING was constructed. However, with their attention to detail it apears to have been found.
EDIT; Not everything was constructed but certainly most of it was moved(save for surrounds)
Peter, I think the word that best describes what I think you can't put your finger on is "sexy". That 5th pic is the short Par 4 7th taken from the extreme right side of the fairway. This is the hole with the green in the shape of an "E" that has bunkers filling the negative spaces of the "E". What's truly amazing is how the 8th hole comes off as even sexier.

The course epitomizes the fundamental principles that I suspect Jones and Mackenzie originally envisioned for Augusta National. Shot testing without dictation. Recovery opportunities abound on this well thought out design.

If I weren't a member, my feelings about it would still be the same.  

 
 
« Last Edit: March 06, 2008, 04:29:30 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal is the real deal!
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2008, 10:00:27 AM »
Ballyneal is so superior in design to Pacific Dunes that it is sick.  Stop waiting for your package invite with Sand Hills and get out to see it before your true intentions are revealed.

John

I am not quite sure what you mean by this post, but then I don't understand many of your posts.  Invite or no, Colorado is not the sort of place I happen to find myself in.  Consequently, any plan to visit this area would be a long term one at best.  Its probably better to assume that folks aren't looking for an invite and just accept their comments at face value. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Peter Pallotta

Re: Ballyneal is the real deal!
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2008, 10:10:06 AM »
Adam - thanks, as always. You have a way with words: yes, they ARE sexy.  And "the shot-testing without dictation" concept is a very neat and tidy one. One of my first thoughts was that these were examples of golf holes where "the beautiful IS the good"....

Peter

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Ballyneal is the real deal!
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2008, 10:13:41 AM »
Robert:

I'm not sure I understand your post. This is GolfClubAtlas - or the Tom Doak Fan Club Headquarters. Of course we all recognize Ballyneal's greatness and we don't even have to to play it to judge it. If Mr. Doak designed it then it IS great.

Anthony


John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal is the real deal!
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2008, 10:59:45 AM »
Robert:

I'm not sure I understand your post. This is GolfClubAtlas - or the Tom Doak Fan Club Headquarters. Of course we all recognize Ballyneal's greatness and we don't even have to to play it to judge it. If Mr. Doak designed it then it IS great.

Anthony

Dear Wise Guy,

The land that Ballyneal rests upon is really nice for golf.  Some Doak courses are better than others, and Ballyneal happens to be my favorite right now.  I don't know if it's designed better than Pacific Dunes, as the main JK says, but I think it presents a more varied challenge on a day to day basis.  And it wouldn't be too surprising if Renaissance Golf refined and improved their design abilities between 1999 and 2005.  That's another thread for another day.

With respect to the second part of your post, GolfClubAtlas needs to branch out.  We're discussing Tom's work way too much in comparison to other new work.  I believe I'll start a "Fawning - Part II" thread within a day or so.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Ballyneal is the real deal!
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2008, 11:02:34 AM »
One thing that gets me is why would anyone need to play Ballyneal to know it is a great course?  Just look at the land, take into account Doak's record and mix that with the opinions of people you respect.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal is the real deal!
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2008, 11:09:12 AM »
Ballyneal is sort of GCA.com baby. I'm even considering bequeathing my membership to GCA inc. if none of my brother's girls, or my sister's boy, golf.

Who remembers the very first pictures posted of the raw land?

I'd think it's safe to speculate that without GCA.com, Ballyneal may not have been built when, and by whom, it got built.


« Last Edit: March 06, 2008, 11:12:10 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal is the real deal!
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2008, 12:00:06 PM »
Remembering back to the time Rupert and his brother Jim were first contemplating the project, and some thoughts were posted, then Dave Wilbur chimed in with detailed discussion of what he was seeing out there for prospects of great F&F turf, managed in an old sod traditional manner, then Doak adding architectural analysis to the potentials he felt were out there, and all the photographers that went there - before, during, and after it was built... I think Adam is quite right that BallyNeal is something of a spin-off or product of the GCA.com collective effort to draw new attention to these traditional issues of design and turf.  I have to figure that the O'Neils had thier antenna up, to at least tap into the frequencies that were being broadcast in our little collective discussion. 

I certainly haven't seen but a tiny fraction of all the great golf courses in the world (who could realistically expect to?)  Yet, in being lucky enough to actually see BallyNeal before, during, and after the construction/design of the course, along with my equally fortuitous chances at Sand Hills;  I think I can say I've seen the epitome in so much that other greats may come along, but not much will ever be better. 

To be melodramatic and romantic, and fawning just a little bit; if you are nuts for the golf course architecture - it seems comparable to living in the times of around in 1504 when they rolled out David... 
... hopefully Tony P didn't just throw up on his keyboard!  :o ::) ;) ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal is the real deal!
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2008, 12:35:10 PM »
Tom, could you explain your decision to go with fescue?  That decision seems like such an important one from what I've read from the folks who have had the good fortune to play Ballyneal. 

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal is the real deal!
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2008, 12:47:58 PM »
JMorgan,

I think we'll let Tom off the hook by answering a question for him.  First of all, there's a great article on Ballyneal construction and maintenance in this month's Golf Course Industry magazine.  Go to page 58:

http://golfcourseindustry.texterity.com/golfcourseindustry/200802/

Secondly, for the full discussion, here is Ballyneal Agronomy" from May, 2004, by master agronomist Dave Wilber.  It is that thread that piqued my interest in Ballyneal, and is the reason I am a member of the club.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,13069.0.html

John

Jim Nugent

Re: Ballyneal is the real deal!
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2008, 01:20:08 PM »


With respect to the second part of your post, GolfClubAtlas needs to branch out.  We're discussing Tom's work way too much in comparison to other new work. [/quote]

I disagree completely.  We discuss hundreds of courses here, from all manner of architects. 

With respect to all the other talented/great archies who post, in Doak we may well have the next MacKenzie.  It is our great fortune that he takes part in this forum.  Crazy if we don't discuss his courses, as so many are among the world's best, with more yet to come.   

I also like seeing as many photos of Ballyneal as I can. 


ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Ballyneal is the real deal!
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2008, 02:12:46 PM »
John:

I wasn't being a wise guy. I was serious. There is no need for anyone on this post to tell us to go and play a Doak course because we'll love it, of course we'll love it and shouldn't we? I mean it's not like anything he's ever done isn't perfect? I mean if the Redan at Pacific didn't work (let's pretend balls can get stuck up on the right side and don't kick down) or there were some very long walks from greens to tees in which you walk over or around tees from other holes, I would understand, but there isn't. It's perfect.

And of course GCA is responsible for getting the course built. Are you kidding me? without this site the entire game of golf would have imploded by now and we'd all be playing Tom Fazio designs grassed by artificial turf.

Anthony, not Mr. Wise Guy

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal is the real deal!
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2008, 03:40:57 PM »
I shouldn't wade into this but I will . . .

Anthony,

I don't understand the venom.  Your critiques of Pacific Dunes seem pretty minor to me. 

Do you have any thoughts on Ballyneal?

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Ballyneal is the real deal!
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2008, 04:27:14 PM »
Tim:

There's no venom.

I'm just making fun of the fawning over Doak and his work, with quotes like this illustrating my point:  "I hope that those who have the opportunity will recognize greatness."

Anthony

Mark_F

Re: Ballyneal is the real deal!
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2008, 04:48:19 PM »
Amazing pictures of an amazing looking place. As Sean says, it looks too wonderful to be true.

I particularly like the first image - a sliver of green fairway in the vastness of nowhere.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal is the real deal!
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2008, 05:10:49 PM »
Thanks for sharing.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Ballyneal is the real deal!
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2008, 10:43:08 PM »
I don’t know how one could look at those pictures and not be inspired.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a golf course blend with the land so perfectly.
And Anthony, I can’t imagine feeling any different about it no matter the designer. I can’t tell you how it plays as I’ve never been there, but based on the photos, Ballyneal looks as good as any course I’ve ever seen.

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal is the real deal!
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2008, 11:42:34 PM »
It looks like I'm going to get to see this Eastern Colorado beauty first hand in the last week of June. Is anybody else from the tree house going to be there in that time frame?
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Brendan Dolan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ballyneal is the real deal!
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2008, 01:09:02 AM »
Kyle,

I'll be there as an intern on the maintenance crew this summer.  I still have not met any GCA.com guys as of this moment, but it seems like that will change this summer!  Thanks for the great pictures Robert. Can't wait to get out there.

Brendan   

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