[TEPaul]

I'll try to get into the reasons later even if they may be a little nuancy but my sense has always been of the dead architects it had to have been Ross.

And I get the feeling of the living architects it might be Doak. He certainly talks a lot on here of thinking of the less skilled player in recovery around greens and I just don't see him being a fan at all of long courses, quite the opposite in fact, even if he sure has thrown in some "half pars" on the long side (or potentially long due to prevailing wind or whatever).

Who do you think the two architects are, one living and one dead who accommodate the "dub" best, and why?

[Sean_A]

Theres probably an argument that anyone of a dozen dead archies could be said to accomodate the dub.  I bet that number is far less for living archies - assuming we are only talking about well known archies.  If we are going across the board I bet there are a few dozen or more living archies who look after dubs quite well. 

Ciao 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Frankly, with their penchant for "optional" carry bunkers in the Golden Age, and with Ross "Top Shot" bunkers, I am not sure I can nominate too many of the GA guys.

As to TD, his greens are so severely contoured in most cases its hard to think that he is best at protecting the hack.  He builds a hard course and with his ultra wide fw, encourages ultra long hitting, not exactly the baliwick of the high handicapper in most cases.  Also, his bunkers are fairly deep.

I also know, despite her protests to the contrary that Alice Dye probably isn't the champion of women or hacks as she professes to be, other than getting the rest of us to think about it more.

There are dozens of gca's out there who design for the average Joe FIRST that have to be better than the signature archies and maybe even the GA guys.  Isn't that accomodation that "dumbs down" the architecture really what 99% of the complaints on modern design are?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Jeff,

Sounds like you're talking Joe Lee.

Mark

[TEPaul]

"There are dozens of gca's out there who design for the average Joe FIRST that have to be better than the signature archies and maybe even the GA guys.  Isn't that accomodation that "dumbs down" the architecture really what 99% of the complaints on modern design are?"

JeffB:

I guess you're right, particularly on the last sentence of dumbing down. I forgot all about that awfully modern age penchant of shaping the beeejeeesus out of the flanks of the mid-bodies of holes with all that wavy-gravy looking contouring and containment mounding and such---one of the more regrettable and boneheaded styles golf architecture has ever known.

Ross sure didn't get into crap like that. 

[Phil_the_Author]

Tilly wrote the following during his PGA Course Consultation Tour:

“I am the duffers’ Santa Claus, for over 20 years I have championed the cause of the ‘forgotten man’ of golf, the duffer who cannot break 90 and who comprise over 90% of our vast army of golfers. The future progress of this game depends entirely upon the active interest of the average divot-digging member. The trend has been to sock the helpless and hopeless dub with courses that are almost impossible for them to negotiate. I am against it, the P.G.A. is against it and every sound thinking professional is against it. I am the duffers’ candidate, and shall continue to defend them until my last breath.”

[Mark_F]

As to TD, his greens are so severely contoured in most cases its hard to think that he is best at protecting the hack. 

Jeff,

Why do you believe that severely contoured greens are necessarily handicapping the hack?

Putting is the easiest part of the game, after all, for the hack player to get good at, especially if they invest in the plethora of Dave Pelz products  , and short-hitting higher markers are probably going to be approaching a green with their third anyway, so it is up to them to make most use of it.

I have found that at my Doak course it is the single figure marker who is squealing about the severity of the greens. 

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

Jeff may be right in his protests, though I don't think the dub minds three-putting as much as he minds hitting into a water hazard.   But, I'm happy to accept the mantle of being accommodating.  Jeff probably wouldn't think of St. Andrews as accommodating, either, with those pot bunkers and wild greens, but I steered people around The Old Course who couldn't play at all, and I dare say that is not possible on most modern designs.

Why?  I think it gets down to personality.  There are a lot of really good players among architects, and quite a few of them seem determined to show that they know golf better than the dub does 18 times every round.  (Something like Matt Ward's definition of good architecture yesterday as only rewarding the good shot.)  But the really strange thing is that even more of the architects I know who are ten-handicaps make their courses too tough.  I think it's because they are trying to show good players that they know what they're talking about.

I'm not saying golf courses should be easy, or dull -- those may be more accommodating to the dub, but only until he gives up the game out of sheer boredom.  You have to make a course interesting, and only real difficulties make it interesting.

[paul cowley]

....whats a "dub"?.

[Tom_Doak]

Paul:

It's the old golf-architecture-book term for a poor player who "dubs" shots off the tee.  We'd probably call them a "hack" now, but hacks spray the ball around more, dubs just don't consistently hit it solid.

[James Bennett]

I always thought MacKenzie accomodated the dub very well.

Any architect who designs a course where you can finish with the same ball as you started will qualify as being 'dub friendly' (which implies Ross would qualify as well, a ka Pinehurst #2).  Accomodating the dub doesn't mean 'easy' to me, it means providing a (longer) path of less immediate penalty to those who choose it.

I think Doak achieves this, especially if the course has not presented the greens at a speed greater than originally expected.

James B

[Mike McGuire]

I'm not saying golf courses should be easy, or dull -- those may be more accommodating to the dub, but only until he gives up the game out of sheer boredom.  You have to make a course interesting, and only real difficulties make it interesting.

A few years ago i did an informal survey of members .

What are you 5 favorite holes on the course.

The number one hole was a short par four but # 3 or 5 on the handicap. The green sits up high on a perch but even the women rated it high even though it was hard to score on.

I think golfers don't mind a challenge .... just don't take an existing hole and make it more challenging.

[TEPaul]

Mark Ferguson:

I think your post hit a fundamental nail  on the head---eg green-end contours and such does not take strength--ie an ability a "dub" generally doesn't have. Green-end interest is generally in the realm of imagination and "dubs" can understand that even if they know they may not be able to execute it as well as the expert. But if and when they do----it totally hooks them. The point is they aren't capable of getting hooked by a 300 yard drive because they know they'll never be able to do that.

[Mark_F]

The point is they aren't capable of getting hooked by a 300 yard drive because they know they'll never be able to do that.

Tom Paul:

I think that's exactly right.  It's noticeable that the other two architects mentioned above - MacKenzie and Ross - were also noted for having great greens and plenty of achievable short-game interest and variety. 

I think Tom Doak wrote somewhere once, too, that Mackenzie built 6500 yard courses that somehow appeared to play longer, so the dub is in a more positive frame of mind as soon as they step on the first tee. 

I'm unsure if this is a characteristic of Ross, as we are a bit short of Donald Ross courses in Australia...

[Don Hyslop]

In the words of Stanley Thompson;
   "The most successful course is one that will test the skill of the most advanced player, without discouraging the “duffer”, while adding to the enjoyment of both. This is not an easy task, but is by no means an insoluble one. The absence of the cross bunkers has largely made it possible. One should always keep in mind that more than 85% of the golfers play 90 or over. These are the men that support the clubs and therefore the course should not be built for the men who play in the 70 class."
   

[Joe Bausch]

....whats a "dub"?.

Paul, here is another of the series of 1931 Philadelphia Evening Bulletin articles (courtesy of the Temple Urban Archives) by Joe Dey where "Dub" and "Star" are used for hacker and expert, it seems.

[Peter Pallotta]

It is dumb to suggest that Mr. Nicklaus (and his courses of the last 15 years or so) best accomodates the dub?

I say that based on the number of higher end resort and residential courses he's built and is continually being asked to build. Since they're usually quite expensive to play, and since most golfers are dubs, he's obviously not angering or discouraging those players too much.

From the past, Mr. Anonymous built a whole bunch of courses suitable for the dub; unfortunately, he gets no respect, because the dubber's ego grows tired of being catered to that way....unless he's paying big bucks for it

Peter   

[BCrosby]

Dead guy - A. MacKenzie

Living guy - Mike Young

Mark Ferguson's point below about building resistance to scoring with green contours rather then toughening fw features (cuz the dub doesn't mind a three putt but has no chance with full shots) - is a very good one.

It's a design principle I see often these days with renovations. The emphasis is put on toughening greens while actually softening features tee to green. Overall scoring stays about the same. People are taking more putts than before, but getting to the green a little sooner.

Bob

[TEPaul]

"I think Tom Doak wrote somewhere once, too, that Mackenzie built 6500 yard courses that somehow appeared to play longer, so the dub is in a more positive frame of mind as soon as they step on the first tee. 
I'm unsure if this is a characteristic of Ross, as we are a bit short of Donald Ross courses in Australia..."


Mark:

If the opportunity arose Ross certainly could design courses that were long for their day. Aronimink is a good example.

Actually my own course, a 1916 Ross, is a very interesting example. He designed and BUILT the course at 6700 yards in 1916!!

For years my course has had the reputation as a pretty good "short" course because the fact is for about the last 75 years the course has been less than 6300 yards from the tips. In the last five years we added over 250 yards to the tips and so still today it's not as long as Ross designed it in 1916!!!

When one starts to think about that it just might make GMGC completely unique in that way.

As a comparison, in the teens Merion East which was considered to be a championship course was about 6400 from the tips and Pine Valley which was considered to be something of a torture chamber and only for elite players was 6700 yards.

Also, Ross' apparent penchant for high tee/valley fairways/high green sites makes his courses play longer than they really are.

[Kalen Braley]

Does Tom Doak or Alister MacKenzie really fit here TomP?

Even though they generally aren't long, it seems that both of them use thier fair share of forced carries off the tee which flies in the face of the dub.  While I would concede that usually these carries aren't water hazards, they are usually penal enough in the form of tall grass/unmaintained areas/barrancas to be intimidating and lead to unplayable lies and/or lost balls

[Mark_F]

Actually my own course, a 1916 Ross, is a very interesting example. He designed and BUILT the course at 6700 yards in 1916!!

For years my course has had the reputation as a pretty good "short" course because the fact is for about the last 75 years the course has been less than 6300 yards from the tips. In the last five years we added over 250 yards to the tips and so still today it's not as long as Ross designed it in 1916!!!

Tom:

That's really interesting.  I know that greens can shrink in size over the years, but I wasn't aware it could happen on such a large scale with tees...

What was the process in adding the additional yardage?  Obviously a conscious decision was made to shorten the course somewhere in the mid 1930s, and it has been happily played at its new yardage since. 

Also, Ross' apparent penchant for high tee/valley fairways/high green sites makes his courses play longer than they really are.

That's interesting, too.  This is a characteristic of my course, and I find it has interesting effects on both the dub and the better player. 

From the tees, it can tend to inspire a bit of confidence in the dub,because you don't have to worry about getting the ball in the air.  However, as the course is on a reasonably windy site, you actually need to learn to hit the ball a little bit lower if you want it to go anywhere.  The high tees can also make it difficult to discern exactly where you need to land the ball in order to avoid the various fairway hazards, which have an alarming tendency to suddenly appear in range mid-flight.

With the elevated greens, they tend to hide just enough of the flag to make it uncertain where it is exactly located. 

[Carl Rogers]

Tom,
Riverfront (as much as I like it am lucky to live so close by and have said so on this site and in other venues) is, from my observation, to the less skilled player is very very tough.  Awkward sidehill fairway stances, pitch shots that have a very small landing areas, forced carries on 4, 5, 15 & 18, cross bunkers on 8, 9 & 16. ... tons of hard hard putts ... a few semi-blind shots ... there are no easy bunkers anywhere.

As this is one of your earlier courses, have you evolved toward the less skilled?

[James Bennett]

....whats a "dub"?.

Paul, here is another of the series of 1931 Philadelphia Evening Bulletin articles (courtesy of the Temple Urban Archives) by Joe Dey where "Dub" and "Star" are used for hacker and expert, it seems.

Joe

do you have Friday's paper?  I would love to hear how the star and the dub played Merion East #11.

James B

[Bradley Anderson]

Keith Foster built a course here in Chicago called Shepherd's Crook that is maybe the most enjoyed (by all level of players) that I know of.

Donald Ross greens are generally open somewhere to recovery shots. Also they are so well framed and so delightful to look at, that I think the dub is less intimidated by that visually.

[Joe Bausch]

....whats a "dub"?.

Paul, here is another of the series of 1931 Philadelphia Evening Bulletin articles (courtesy of the Temple Urban Archives) by Joe Dey where "Dub" and "Star" are used for hacker and expert, it seems.

Joe

do you have Friday's paper?  I would love to hear how the star and the dub played Merion East #11.

James B

JB, I'm very anxious to see that article, and all them for that matter.  I'm sure in due time I'll get them all.  I'm just trying to figure out the best way to accomplish this.

Joe

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