Non-flat tees: "Is that too retro for you?"

[Matt_Cohn]

From geoffshackelford.com

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2008/2/12/dont-let-them-just-stick-a-peg-in-the-ground-and-bomb-it.html

So, non-flat tees with slopes that you can use to help you shape your shot: "Is that too retro for you?"

[AndrewB]

Not for me.

[Jeremy Rivando]

It certainly sounds like a pretty original idea.  I like the conceptual change from the standardized teeing areas, I believe the tees at the Castle course may be fairly unique as well.  I think the important point is that there are still flat areas and if you prefer to use the uneven lies, great.

[Rich Goodale]

The 10th at SFGC has always been "non-flat" in my experience, and was deliberately kept that way in the recent Doak restoration.

[Ray Richard]

A laser-graded and flat tee allows for maximum usage of the entire tee surface. If you have irregularities, most golfers will avoid them and find a flat spot. These flat spots become impossible to manage.
I think the contemporary golf game allows for plenty of shot shaping with the type of equipment available in the market. Irregular tee surfaces are a feature of the past caused by the lack of sophisticated grading equipment.

[S. Huffstutler]

Non flat tees suck.

[Tom_Doak]

I personally don't like laser-levelled flat tees because they stick out in the landscape ... not because we want players to have to cope with an uneven lie on the tee, but a 1% or 2% slope on the tee really won't make much difference anyway.

I don't see a problem with having some contoured areas as part of the tee, as long as the tee is plenty big so players can use them by choice and not out of necessity.

[Willie_Dow]

It seemed to me that the object of non-flat tees was to afford proper drainage, especially where there was clay soil. 

But, I got accustom to that feature and really liked the feel of making the shot fit the hole.

[Brian Cenci]

I have never liked non-flat tees because they tend to favor right handers instead of my fellow lefties.

[JMorgan]

Why not?  Anything that adds actual or perceived degrees of freedom, whether design-wise or in play. 

[jeffwarne]

I usually straddle the left tee marker, (oftentimes with my feet in the rough-what my feet are used to ) to promote (or fit) my favorite shot-the sweeper off the hook lie.

I can hit 10-12 fairways in a row (OK that's stretching it) but if I miss one someone ALWAYS points  out it's because my stance was uneven.

I really enjoy Sebonack's freeform tees, but most commonly I experience such lies at munis and older public courses for obviously different reasons.


why don't we just go ahead and laser level greens-we've practically done it anyway
 

Surely the USGA can find existing tee placements at  Chambers Bay that the best players in the world can function from?
Or they can bring in "The Open Doctor" to build some for his favorite kid brother.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Non Flat Tee’s or Flat Tees or etc.

I have played off many interesting Tees over the years, so am relatively content with what I am given, after all its is part of the game I am about
to play and (hopefully) there for my enjoyment.

The most interesting Tees where at Jos - 100 mile or so from Kano in Nigeria. Mind you the course was perhaps much more interesting, as it consisted of red soil with the odd blade of grass every yard. Predominately a red sandy soil course – no bunkers as the grass could easily deflect your ball – you had to plan your game very carefully by aiming for the sandiest part of the course with minimum forward travel once on the ground. Sorry, I digress - back to the Tees – These were elevated some over 3M high made out of compacted ant/termite mounds with a 1 x 2 M mat on top for your Tee. You could tell the visitors, they struggled up the with their bags – the locals selected their club before climbing these mini Everest’s, but once on top the views can only be described as interesting - as the course was very much like the early crisscross affairs.
The Nigerians, to make the coarse more interesting (I suppose) added another couple of hazards approximately 20/30 yards in front of a couple of theses raises Tees by installing rather low power cables in line with the flight of the ball.  The Greens – well, what Greens – having said that it became most enjoyable and improved my game which I only noticed when I returned home.

So Non Flat Tees, laser-leveled or flat tees are just a pussycat compared to Jos.   

[Tom_Doak]

Frankly, this is probably much ado about nothing -- I would be SHOCKED if the back tee pads they designed in expectation of a major championship weren't already flat.

If this is really "the first really new idea of 21st century golf design," as Whitten said, then we are off to a slow start.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Is the long term maintenance cost of the free form tee lower?  Is there a need to come back in after several years and recontour as you would have to do witha laser flat?

[Lloyd_Cole]

A well contoured tee that allows the thinking player to make the shape of shot he's attempting easier is a good thing, so long as there is enough flat ground. A slightly crowned shape seems to make sense and surely would integrate into the surrounding contours better than a laser sharp horizontal launching pad..

Imperfect teeing grounds may or may not be a good thing, depending upon your politics, or upbringing, perhaps.. but surely we realise that 90% of the golfers in the world play from them, the primary reason being budgetary.

At our little course the stroke 1 hole plays straight up hill to a fairway which slopes right to left with trees in play on the right. From the back tee the trees necessitate a bombed fade drive to make the desired landing area to approach the green. The tee is tiny and sloped to encourage a draw (for the right hander). It's a terrible set up, but on the occasion that I execute the drive, I'm very pleased with myself...

[Dean Stokes]

For years golf clubs have been trying their hardest to level tee boxes. Now designers are going the other way. Surely that's not the best they can come up with is it!!!

Takes me back to the middle of Winter when the ground was too soggy or frosty to use the tee boxes. We had to tee it on the fairway or in the rough on an uneven lie. It was terrible then and is still is. Freeform or uneven? Nah.

[Peter Nomm]

Wouldn't this kind of be like some other novelties that were "one-hit wonders?"  This would quickly become the only thing the course would be known for.

[Wayne_Freedman]

Seems to me that tees which would aid shot shotmaking are not in the spirit of the game.

If, from a flat tee, you can hit to an area with a favorable lie, then that would be a matter of skill and execution.

Let's have a basketball dunking contest from a trampoline...

[Joe Hancock]

Wayne Freedman,

The player would still have to understand the swing mechanics and such to utilize the undulations on a tee. An uneven lie doesn't simply aid a preferred shot if the golfer doesn't understand and adjust for it.

Along the same lines, back in the day when greens were slow and grainy, the player didn't merely rely on execution of the shot. There was a mental superiority, as well as physical, that separated the best putters from the worst. And, I bet that separation was greater than it is today, between the best and worst.

I think the mental advantage still exists, but I also think the game has become homogenized, at least at the highest levels of competition.

Joe

[JohnH]

One rarely gets an even lie anywhere else on the golf course, why should a tee make any difference?

I would suggest (and I'm throwing this out there) that a majority of the golfing population with their 20 handicaps are not thinking about working the ball off the tee, rather, they're just trying to meet the club head on the ball solidly.  I wonder how a contoured tee would enhance play for such a player.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Frankly, this is probably much ado about nothing -- I would be SHOCKED if the back tee pads they designed in expectation of a major championship weren't already flat.

If this is really "the first really new idea of 21st century golf design," as Whitten said, then we are off to a slow start.

I recall Bobby getting up at an ASGCA meeting and proposing rolling tees as a way to restore challenge as opposed to length several years ago, so he has been thinking about it for a while.

Frankly, Tom, you have made a career as an iconoclast, and I would think you would endorse those on general principal (had Bobby not gotten there first) as part of your overall design personna!

[Ian Andrew]

Are there any historical examples of MacKenzie, Colt, Tillinghast, MacDonald Thomas or Ross "intentionally" building undulating tees?

I'm not convinced this is retro - unless retro is pre 1900's and means the origins of the game.

[JESII]

I like a flat tee...but not a real large tee.

I don't buy into the need to have these gigantic dimansions for even wear, the ball's on a tee...cut the grass real short, roll it smooth, and let me put a tee in the ground...just don't make it 30' X 60'...that's what really looks unnatural.

[Adam Clayman]

Ian, Whether it was intentional, or not, I can recall many older courses, before the recent evolution of maintenance practices, having crowned teeing grounds. The narrower the teeing ground the less avoidance was possible. With the constant increase in players lengths, off the tee, over time, the added variety of having a few uneven teeing grounds, to challenge a great player like Wayne Freeman, is not too much to ask. Is it?
 This is one of those questions which highlights what people prefer. Over-coming what a golfer doesn't like is at the heart of golfing one's ball.

[tlavin]

Lumpy, rolling, wave-like tees are just plain annoying, IMHO.  I'm not advocating perfectly flat surfaces, a little pitch or slant is not necessarily a bad thing and, like a tee that is subtly pointed toward trouble, it could be a nice little architectural trick.

The description from Shackelford's site made the tee boxes sound gimmicky, but then again, I haven't been to Chambers Bay.  Yet, that is...