[AndrewB]

I have never come across a course that (purposely) has sloped tees.  It seems like this could perhaps make some holes more interesting and add another element to course design.  Think of a driver off a slightly downhill lie when there is a forced carry, or off an uphill lie on a hole predominantly played into the wind.  Or, perhaps a slope encouraging a draw when a par 3's green (or par 4's fairway) better accepts a fade.

I'm sure this would not be popular amongst most players, and I'd expect the word "unfair" to be thrown around a lot.  But, often these sorts of characteristics are cited when talking about the great challenges presented by the best courses.  For example, the recent discussions about Merion highlighted the 5th hole, where the fairway's slope encourages a draw, but the ideal shot in to the green is a fade.

What do others think about this?  Also, are there any courses that have tees like this?

(The only example I can think of is the hole on PVGC's par 3 course designed to replicate the second shot of one of the holes (4? not sure) on the course.)

[Jim Nugent]

Cool idea.  Not sure I will hold my breath on it though.  

[Lou_Duran]

Custom.

The only time one has on the course to affect his lie, stance, and angle of attack to a small extent.

The tee is the beginning of play on each hole in a game that is very difficult and subject to a multitude of variables.  To mound a tee or frame it with trees or bushes would be cruel and unusual punishment.

For those desiring more complicated challenges, what's stopping you from finding a suitable position to start in the areas around the tees?

[TEPaul]

Sebonac: Maybe they're mostly sort of flat but maybe not. Certainly parts of them are anything but flat. They'd have to plant the tee markers pretty wide but if they did there's no telling what kind of lie you might use on some of those tees. They look less like tees than any golf course I ever saw.

[A_Clay_Man]

Many of the teeig grounds here at Pinon hills have some slight slope to it. Not sure if it was intended for drainage (I suspect so). They are't like some of the older courses ,before Matt Ward got his on them, where the teeing ground is mounded. Giving the golfer options on which side to play. Finding a flat spot was often difficult. I personally learned alot about my swing, because of those slopes. i love'em

[Mike Benham]

Flat teeing grounds have evolved through time.  Were teeing grounds flat (manufactured) back in good old Scotland with the feathery?  I think not ...

[A_Clay_Man]

mike, only if the green was flat.

[John Kirk]

Sebonac: Maybe they're mostly sort of flat but maybe not. Certainly parts of them are anything but flat. They'd have to plant the tee markers pretty wide but if they did there's no telling what kind of lie you might use on some of those tees. They look less like tees than any golf course I ever saw.

Tom,

Same with Ballyneal.  The amorphous tee areas at Ballyneal are an outstanding feature.  Depending on tee marker placement (will there be tee markers?), the golfer may have the option of intentionally playing from an uneven lie.

[David Lott]

Tees that point to the rough or a hazard are bad enough. Leave 'em flat.

(Though perhaps we could use round tees Columbus Day.)

[John Kirk]

I've been on several courses (all courses?) where the teeing areas have settled, leaving a sloped box.

It seems to me that more often than not, the tee box is low of the left side, leaving a hook lie.  Don't know why; maybe a personal equilibrium issue.

[Bill Shotzbarger]

It seems like this could perhaps make some holes more interesting and add another element to course design.  Think of a driver off a slightly downhill lie when there is a forced carry, or off an uphill lie on a hole predominantly played into the wind.  Or, perhaps a slope encouraging a draw when a par 3's green (or par 4's fairway) better accepts a fade.

Why not the other way around? I think a redan with a sloped tee to help the draw would put a lot of shots into the bunkers on the left. And I think slightly downhill when the hole is played into the wind would help women and high handicappers.

[AndrewB]

Also, are there any courses that have tees like this?

Santa Clara Muni ... ;)

Yeah, that's actually what got me thinking about this ...

I thought about all the times I've whined about not finding a flat spot on a tee, while at the same time wishing greens would have more undulation.  I like slope in greens because they (usually) increase the challenge and thought required to play a shot, making things just a bit more interesting.  Based on that reasoning, I should also like slopes in tees: the more you have to think, the more fun it is.

I guess it's similar to why I've grown to like playing in difficult conditions (rain, wind, cold, fog, etc) .. they usually provide a new experience by forcing you to hit shots you don't usually face.

[AndrewB]

It seems like this could perhaps make some holes more interesting and add another element to course design.  Think of a driver off a slightly downhill lie when there is a forced carry, or off an uphill lie on a hole predominantly played into the wind.  Or, perhaps a slope encouraging a draw when a par 3's green (or par 4's fairway) better accepts a fade.

Why not the other way around? I think a redan with a sloped tee to help the draw would put a lot of shots into the bunkers on the left. And I think slightly downhill when the hole is played into the wind would help women and high handicappers.

Sure, why not.  More variation sounds good to me.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Andrew.

Flat tees give no undue advantage to a lefty or a righty,
A high ball hitter or a low ball hitter,
A slicer or a hooker.
And, since architects seek to forge a tactical challenge that favors no particular game and since superintendents have to maintain a restricted area, flat tees are the product of common sense.

But, Adam Clayman's and Mike Benham's comments are also significant.

For centuries, golfers teed the ball up, up to two club lengths from the hole, and in most cases the hole was usually on an area of the green that was relatively flat.

When you combine the history of the game, with the architect's intent and a superintendent's responsibility, you get flat tees, allowing for drainage.

[Sébastien Dhaussy]

Andrew,

An another GCA thread on the subject:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=18645

and an article by Tony Cashmore from iseekgolf.com (Should Tees Be Flat?):
http://www.iseekgolf.com/golfarchitecture/articles.php?g_id=7

[Forrest Richardson]

Nearly all "flat" tees have slope to them. Uphill and level holes, for example, will most always have slightly upward sloping tees — I have seen as much as 2%. Downhill tees can be slightly tilted downward, but usually very slightly. Most golfers absorb this as "normal" because it looks appropriate.

The only purposefully uneven "tees" I have heard of is a layout we created for a client called "Extreme Golf". In this concept, short holes began from all sorts of odd places — roughs, bunkers, slopes, side-hills, behind trees, etc.  It never got built. But was a grand idea. Someday I expect to see it finished.

[Tom Ferrell]

As John Kirk mentioned, Ballyneal has some really wild tee complexs, none wilder than the 17th.  A long par-4 that sweeps around to the right, with a higher left landing area and a lower right landing area that shortens the hole considerably.  The "box" is probably fifty yards wide at is widest, with at least that much depth.  There are flat areas on it, humps, rolls and dips.  I was talking to another writer about it and posed the question "when was the last time you remembered a TEE BOX as an architectural feature?!?!"  Good stuff.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I appreciate that this is not a silly concept and I can imagine a good player quite relishing the challenge of playing from a sloping tee which will automatically shape his or her shot and the consequences thereof.  However, I doubt if it would work in the UK, at least at those clubs where most of the golf played is competitive and participants would want a 'level playing field'.  It would be pretty disastrous for a golfer of my ineptitude, but then, for me, so is a dead flat tee.....

[AndrewB]

Flat tees give no undue advantage to a lefty or a righty,
A high ball hitter or a low ball hitter,
A slicer or a hooker.
And, since architects seek to forge a tactical challenge that favors no particular game and since superintendents have to maintain a restricted area, flat tees are the product of common sense.

Pat,

Thanks for your comments.

It seems, though, that your argument taken to an extreme would leave us with very bland courses.  I think every challenge that exists on a golf course favors some games over others.  Doglegs favor the player that naturally works the ball the same direction as the hole; uphill holes typically favor high ball hitters; undulating greens favor those with more touch; forced carries favor longer players.  If we were to aim solely for "tactical challenge that favor no particular game", we'd be left with those straight-away featureless holes discussed on a thread a while back.

I think the key is having enough variation in the challenges such that one particular type of player is not at a significant disadvantage over another (of like ability) across the entire 18 holes.

Sébastien,

Thanks for the links: I'll check them out when I get a chance.

[tlavin]

I've heard it's because modern golf course construction allows for proper drainage and that earlier courses had slopes to help drainage, but that's just chit-chat.

[Philippe Binette]

Just to note...

on a small distance like a tee, a slope of less than 2% is difficult to feel...

so this is an hypothesis, but if you go out with some surveying equipment, you might find out that there are more sloped tees than flat tees

[Brian Cenci]

I absolutely hate tees that aren't flat.  I would say most tees at local muni's aren't flat and a good number of tees at nicer courses aren't perfectly flat.  As a left hander I always seem to be hitting downhill, where if I had to choose I would choose an uphill lie.  There are enough uneven lies in fairways and on greens, I don't think making tees unlevel adds anything to a hole...but an annouance.

[AndrewB]

I just heard Brian Hewitt on Golf Channel cite that RTJ Jr. designed tees with slope in them at Chambers Bay.  As I heard it: "Part of the intent is to present players with uneven lies on the tee box.  This, by the way, is a concept Jones thinks we should see more of.  The idea, he told me, is to make the players think and to put integrity back in the tee shot."

Can folks that have been to Chambers Bay comment on the uneven lies on the tee boxes and whether they think this accomplishes what RTJ Jr. wants?

[Wayne_Kozun]

Flat teeing grounds have evolved through time.  Were teeing grounds flat (manufactured) back in good old Scotland with the feathery?  I think not ...

Back then the tee was the previous green.  One example - The St. Andrews Golfing Society rules of 1829 state:

The balls must be teed not nearer the hole than two club lengths nor further from it than four.

 Source: http://www.ruleshistory.com/rules1829.html

[Doug Siebert]

So can anyone who has played Chambers Bay comment on the teebox slopes there?  Are they so minimal that one wouldn't notice in comparison with older courses with teeboxes that have settled, or are they enough to really affect your shot?

Do they help the golfer or do they frustrate him, such as by giving him a ball above his feet on a dogleg right or an uphill lie on a drop shot par 3 that plays into the prevailing wind?

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