[Tom Jefferson]

Mr. Paul;

Interesting thought.  While I certainly couldn't suggest why they didn't quite blow that design lid off, in thinking of them, one thing they had going was a fresh palette of the west coast landscape, unfettered and open to a new design interpretation.  The land they had to work with, from Marin County in the north with the Meadow Club, through the SF bay area, down the coast through Santa Cruz, Monterey, along the beauty of the Santa Barbara area and the Valley Club, La Cumbre, Montecito, into Los Angeles, to the topic at hand La Jolla CC, and finally to San Diego CC (very nearly into Mexico), and then, why not, into Tijuana and the impressive track there.....well........pretty astounding golf ground with which to work with.

Tom

[TEPaul]

Tom Jefferson:

You're probably right about that. I'll tell you, for an eastern, I've never seen land like that used for golf anywhere before they did it in California.

But one thing I don't understand that shows up on most every photo of those 1920s California courses is that there is so few trees on them preconstruction.

Why was that?

Whatever the reason the fact that people perhaps rather quickly just treed them up probably completely nixxed the envelope-pushing of those revolutionary thinkers.

[Ryan Farrow]

Tom are you talking about a free for all golf hole criss-crossing play any way, any direction, and any how kind of golf? Only to be contained by massive plantings of those sky rocketing Eucalyptus trees.

[David Stamm]

That's an amazing photo!!!

Of La Jolla Country Club...Billy Bell.

 

Bingo!

[David Stamm]

Tom Jefferson:

You're probably right about that. I'll tell you, for an eastern, I've never seen land like that used for golf anywhere before they did it in California.

I think that that was the very reason that the envelope as you say was blown to the four winds. There is so many different looks the California landscape has that the possibilities were almost endless. You combine that with the talents of MacKenzie, Thomas, Bell, Behr, Macbeth, Watson and Dunn and you have the makings of something that turned out to be very special and unique.

But one thing I don't understand that shows up on most every photo of those 1920s California courses is that there is so few trees on them preconstruction.

Why was that?
Simple. Because Southern California is desert. Almost ALL of the flora you see in the area today where it is populated is non-indigenous. Frankly from an aesthetic standpoint,  Southern California in it's natural form is not very much to look at. Now Northern Cal, that's different. The Del Monte forest tumbling into the ocean on the Monterey Peninsula is quite a site to see. The Bay Area as well as a stark beauty that is quite appealing to me at least.

Whatever the reason the fact that people perhaps rather quickly just treed them up probably completely nixxed the envelope-pushing of those revolutionary thinkers.

[Matt_Cohn]

That's an amazing photo!!!

Of La Jolla Country Club...Billy Bell.

I believe that's the opening hole, a friendly par 4.  #2 is a pitch across a small barranca, just on the left of the photo.
Then #3 goes left, and we see in the distance, running parallel to the fill slopes, from l to r, the 4th.

Good golf course!!  I had the privelege of caddying for Littler, Rodgers, Paul Brown of the Cleveland Browns, and Paul Runyan, 2 time PGA champ, when I was in high school in the 60s.

A current photo would show a highly manicured, treed layout.

Tom

Tom,

You're right except that when this photo was taken, today's #2 didn't exist yet. There was an extra par 3 which was #17 where the big apartment building is today. Today's #3 was the old #2. Old 3/new 4 goes up diagonally towards the top of the hill in the distance. Then old 4-8/new 5-9 play sideways across the hill. That's why #10 goes back to the clubhouse instead of #9 - because it was originally designed as #9.

I played my high school golf at LJCC and still see it occasionally when I go home. Cool place.

[Tom Jefferson]

Matt;

Makes perfect sense, and answers the question that always existed for me about the tenth, as you explain.  

Thanks for that.

I thought the second as I knew it was a really cool little hole, across that grassed in wash, with the little green out on that point of high ground.

When did you play at LJHS?  You guys were our hated rivals!!
For I'm a bucaneer from Mission Bay!

Spent alot of time in La Jolla, from Torrey and Blacks and all the beaches south through Bird Rock.  Beaches and girls, and golf!

[James Bennett]

Tom Jefferson:

You're probably right about that. I'll tell you, for an eastern, I've never seen land like that used for golf anywhere before they did it in California.

I think that that was the very reason that the envelope as you say was blown to the four winds. There is so many different looks the California landscape has that the possibilities were almost endless. You combine that with the talents of MacKenzie, Thomas, Bell, Behr, Macbeth, Watson and Dunn and you have the makings of something that turned out to be very special and unique.

But one thing I don't understand that shows up on most every photo of those 1920s California courses is that there is so few trees on them preconstruction.

Why was that?
Simple. Because Southern California is desert. Almost ALL of the flora you see in the area today where it is populated is non-indigenous. Frankly from an aesthetic standpoint,  Southern California in it's natural form is not very much to look at. Now Northern Cal, that's different. The Del Monte forest tumbling into the ocean on the Monterey Peninsula is quite a site to see. The Bay Area as well as a stark beauty that is quite appealing to me at least.

Whatever the reason the fact that people perhaps rather quickly just treed them up probably completely nixxed the envelope-pushing of those revolutionary thinkers.

Tom (and David)

I found the land used to build golf courses near Philadelphia to be quite unique, as a person coming from Oz down under.  Significant changes in elevation requiring great routing skills by Flynn, Ross and co.

I suggest you look at the pictures of Rustic Canyon to get a feel for the land in Southern California.  Alternately, think of nearby Mexico.  Trees don't grow that well in drought-stricken areas (and deserts).  I expect the rainfall is probably 12 inches a year or thereabouts - I am guessing but I expect that will be around the mark.  Whats that, perhaps two or three months rainfall in north-eastern USA?  More particularly, there will be many consecutive months without rain in Southern California.  

If you looked along the coast of Western Australia north of Perth, or South Australia north of Adelaide, you would see very few trees as well.  However, if you go along the east coast, there could be forests anywhere.

Now in Southern California, add irrigation from a 'nearby' river and you can grow whatever trees you want, and you can feel like you are in 'civilised' eastern USA (albeit with better year-round weather), not in some hot and dry and dusty desert area.

James B

[TEPaul]

"Tom are you talking about a free for all golf hole criss-crossing play any way, any direction, and any how kind of golf?"

Ryan:

No, not at all. I just think they were considering some revolutionary applications like some serious width occassionally that may've been very appropriate strategically.

I don't know what that hole is in the photo above but it looks like a decent example of that. It is not that clear to me what exactly they had in mind but Behr talked about golf architecture without rough and he also mentioned Mackenzie said the same thing.

[TEPaul]

"I suggest you look at the pictures of Rustic Canyon to get a feel for the land in Southern California."

James:

I did that in March of 2001. I spent a day, maybe two, on the site looking at it. That was just before construction when the hole designs were being finalize in concept.

That natural, rough and arid pre-construction atmosphere was very different for an eastern like me compared to what we have here with natural preconstruction. The thing that impressed me is just how much Shackelford had identified some of the really little things for golf concept and strategy. If he hadn't been there pointing it out I doubt I would've noticed that much of it at that point.

But the canyon courses, particularly Riviera really blew me away. We definitely don't have natural stuff like that on this side of the country.

But the openness of those early Southern California courses is what really interests me. To me they look 20 times more interesting naturally then the photos of some of our treeless pre-course and "early-course" "farmland" sites on this side.

On the other hand, a number of those architects out there in the 1920s probably really were some pretty revolutionary thinkers anyway, no matter where they ended up, and perhaps even the most significant of them sort of came from this side like Behr, Thomas or Hunter. They probably ended up in California for more reasons than just the good weather.

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