[Phil Benedict]

Yes and alot of people who don't like it will say they do to appear more sophisticated.  The biarritz template stinks.  

If think some people would react negatively if they put in a Yale style biarritz because they will think it's gimmicky/stupid.  It's not everyone's cup of tea.

[Jeff Doerr]

Phil,

Isn't #5 at Bandon Trails a type of biarritz? Everyone I've talked to loves it.

[John Kavanaugh]

Jeff,

That is not a biarritz...It is a swale.  It would be like me coming back to Southern Illinois and calling a ditch a barannca.  I guessing Bandon IV will be a number of like comprimises like that so they can appeal to every segment of society.  That is why I am not bothering to wait to see it.

[Jeff Doerr]

I agree John.

I don't think we'll see the angular look you see at NGLA or Chicago, but I could be wrong.

It's hard to ferret out the exact mandate to the design team.

These quotes are from Brad's Golfweek article:

"...to come up with a retro design that pays homage to Keiser’s favorite architect, Charles Blair Macdonald."

"Now it was our task to bring that vision* westward. The new course – preliminarily named “Old Macdonald” –  would be an ode to Macdonald’s bold understanding of golf strategy. The idea is to draw upon holes he liked and invented as sources for inspiration and emulation."

This is from the previous paragraph:
*"There (NGLA) Olson started a massive restoration process that saw thousands of trees peeled back to reveal the true breadth and width of Macdonald’s outrageous Gothic vision."

[Norbert P]

 I'm not so sure the course should be called Old Macdonald. It's catchy, but it implies that the course will be rebuilding templates from what another borrower took from original concepts. If credit should be given to anybody, methinks it should go to the original designers/discoverers.

 I have a strong belief that this new course will look much different than the engineered look of National. If I may paraphrase Tom Doak " There will be nothing that resembles Raynor's style." and, "First we found holes that were already there in the land."  Besides, the land in Bandon is pretty darn special, why Copy and Paste imagery when a designer can retell a story in his own words?

So, to answer the question, the concepts that are being chosen are proven concepts so I think we'll have another winner in Bandon.   (IMHO)

[Greg Ohlendorf]

The funny thing is that it really won't matter if the golfing public "gets" Old MacDonald. There are already three pretty good reasons to make the trip to Bandon, and once you're there (with not much else to do during the daylight hours), you'll play the 4th, 5th, etc. course because it's there. With the property they have and the people working on it, I'm sure it'll be worth playing...and it gives those of us who've already gone a reason to go back!

[John Kavanaugh]

Just like Pinehurst #8.

[John Kirk]

I'm quite confident that Tom and Jim will produce something really special at OM.

In fact, there's not much I'm more sure of...

Exactly, Mark.  I expect lots of long-lasting golf shots that bring great satisfaction.

With respect to big JK's comment about the Biarritz template, I don't necessarily disagree, but the concept makes a hell of a lot more sense if the ground and turf are firm enough to run a long iron through the swale and onto the back plateau.  So it has a chance on the sand at Bandon.

Jeff Doerr, #5 at the Trails would not qualify as a Biarritz because it's a short iron shot.  And once again, sorry I couldn't join you this month.  Previous plans and knee problems.

[John Kavanaugh]

As a member of the Seth Raynor Society I hope we have an annual meeting some day at Bandon IV.

[Tim Pitner]

It's hard to say how people will perceive Old MacDonald versus the other 3 courses--there's quite a variety of opinions concerning BD, PD and BT right now.  With the seaside atmosphere and Tom Doak/Jim Urbina, it's a very safe bet that it will be a fine course.  I'm not too worried about compromises being made; I think I know who's in charge (Keiser and Doak/Urbina).    

Regarding the template holes, most people won't know or care.  In fact, I'd like to give very little thought to that myself before playing the course for the first time.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

The MacDonald family of courses is mostly private and they don't play majors on these courses.  For the golfing public at large, the Old Mac concept is pretty esoteric.  Unlike Bandon and Pacific Dunes, which are the closest courses to a true links experience in North America, it won't have the cache of a seaside location.  The architecture will have to stand on its own merit.

There's a large CBM GCA fan club but it probably isn't large enough to ensure success.  

Phil,

It depends upon the product that's produced.

If NGLA was transported to Bandon and you asked the same question, the answer would be, "Absolutely, YES"

But, since we don't know what the finished product will look like, we can't provide an unequivical answer.

My inclination is, "YES" because I believe that Mike Keiser, Tom Doak, George Bahto, Brad Klein and others involved, understand what it is that makes CBM's designs so appealing ..... for the ages.[/color]

[TEPaul]

"As a member of the Seth Raynor Society I hope we have an annual meeting some day at Bandon IV."


JohnK:

Are you a member of the Seth Raynor Society??

If so do you know if the members of the Seth Raynor Society have ever bothered to ask themselves what Charles Blair Macdonald would say about a Seth Raynor Society?

Most meglomaniacal Super Icons generally don't take too kindly to their servants having their own societies and blatant admirers.

[Phil Benedict]

Is it bad form to belong to more than one architectural society or are you supposed to choose sides, so to speak?

One of the things I'm trying to get at is whether there is an innate appeal to CBM/SR style, regardless of whether one is aware of its architectural pedigree.  My first exposure to the CBM/SR school was as a teenager playing Hotchkiss.  I didn't know who the architect was and didn't find out until I discovered this site.  That little 9-holer was the coolest course I had ever seen, which maybe isn't saying much because I had mostly played undistinguished munies at that age.  There was stuff going on on those greens that I had never seen before.  Now, having played or seen quite a few highly ranked courses, Yale and Fox Chapel easily rank in my personal top 5.  There is something about exaggerated, admittedly engineered features that strike a chord with me.

[Jim Nugent]

I'm not so sure the course should be called Old Macdonald. It's catchy, but it implies that the course will be rebuilding templates from what another borrower took from original concepts. If credit should be given to anybody, methinks it should go to the original designers/discoverers.

I think you are showing why the name is perfect.  All sorts of people are talking about it, two years before the course even opens up.  Fantastic p.r./marketing.  

The GCA types know the name refers to GBM.  It keeps reminding us of this unique course concept.  Way more than something like "Bandon Pines" would.  

People who don't know GBM will think of the nursery song.  That's not bad, either.  Instant memory.  Then when they play the course, and see how great it is, the name stands out even more.  Same when the golf mags run their reviews and give their ratings.

I'm assuming the course turns out tremendous -- to my mind a sure thing.  

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