name the course from the aerial

[Joe Bausch]

The 1938 aerial of a course that is no longer anything like this currently is below.  Do you recognize it?  Nah, I wasn't reading one of Wexler's books recently.  

[wsmorrison]

Shawnee CC by Tillinghast?

[Joe Bausch]

Bingo!

So what would prevent a full scale restoration of this classic?  Besides the obvious ($)?

[Mike_Cirba]

The obvious.

The owners evidently have ventured that its something they might do, but I believe there is a lot of skepticism whether they would ever do the capital outlay, not to mention closing for a long time.

Also...if you think Merion and Cobb's have flooding issues, you should hear the Shawnee story...egads!

it's a minor miracle they stay open!

[Kyle Harris]

One would also have to eliminate 9 holes as the facility now has 27.

[Phil_the_Author]

Joe,

I think this is a good example of the main question in restoration, at least the one in my mind, of exactly what moment in time you think that a "full scale restoration of this classic" should be brought back to?

The one in April 1911 when it opened it's doors?

The one in April 1914 after the first of major renovation changes were done (by Tilly). These, and more in following years, in order to keep the course competitive for the best players who were competing in the Shawnee/Eastern Open that was played there through the early 20's.

The one in April 1919 after more major changes to the course were done in preparation for hosting the Women's National Amateur Championship (by Tilly).

Pick a year in the 20's as more tweaking was done.

Or the one from the summer of 1938 just prior to the PGA Championship that was held there?

Restoring a course's grandeur is wonderful, but only if one can identify when the grandest of the deur really was....

[Joe Bausch]

Wouldn't restoring it to any of those iterations you describe be a gigantic improvement over what it is now?

[Mike_Cirba]

Wouldn't restoring it to any of those iterations you describe be a gigantic improvement over what it is now?

Joe,

Absolutely YES to that question.

They still market themselves as a Tilliinghast, and perhaps Philip can correct me, but I see less than 10% of the existing 27 holes having anything at all to do with what Tillinghast built.

[Phil_the_Author]

Joe,

That may be, but take a careful look at what the ownership at Shawnee must consider.

First, the island floods out quite often damaging the course.

Second, the entire area has flooded out a number of times in the nearly 100 years since it opened in 1911 causing the golf course to have to basically be rebuilt in its entirety as well as repairs to the Inn which also suffered considerable damage.

Third, if a restoration is to be given real consideration, the entire golfing facility of 27 holes will need to be shut down as Kyle correctly pointed out. The reason for the additional nine that was installed was to allow for more member play (the course was/is the home of the Shawnee CC) while Inn visitors could be placed on the other nine.

You ask the question of what are the problems to doing a restoration "Besides the obvious ($)?" Yet the reality is that, at least in Shawnee's case, the $ is the overhwelmingly largest aspect in every single reason given for not doing one. It cannot be separated out in this instance.

 

[Kyle Harris]

I think one of the points Phil is getting at is that all the tweaking was done with a certain purpose in mind. Picking a point during that process could reintroduce the problems or eliminate the ideas the tweaking initially set out to do.

Shawnee would be a fascinating study on the evolution of a design in an extremely challenging location for a golf course.

[D_Malley]

how did they cross the water back then?  i do not see a bridge.

[Kyle Harris]

how did they cross the water back then?  i do not see a bridge.

Boat.

The 17th hole played across the river, this was the famous "Binniekill" Hole.

[Phil_the_Author]

George,

They crossed by ferry and then they installed a temporary bridge that was put in place every day before building a permanent one which was washed away on several occasions and needed rebuilding as well.

The most interesting aspect of this is how they had a number of caddies whose sole job it was to swim in the water (some staying in for hours at a time) to retrieve golf balls that didn't find the putting surface.

It was because of this that a lady (name escapes me at the moment and whose husband was president at Philmont (?) at the time, scored a 137 on the Binniekill hole. This includes a constant stream (pardon the pun) of stroke and distance penalties assessed by her loving husband for each shot that didn't clear the water.

I can't quite decide who is the more impressive... the husband as a stickler for the rules or the wife for sticking to them... Either way, it must have been a COLD night later in the Buckwood Inn!  

[Kyle Harris]

George,

They crossed by ferry and then they installed a temporary bridge that was put in place every day before building a permanent one which was washed away on several occasions and needed rebuilding as well.

The most interesting aspect of this is how they had a number of caddies whose sole job it was to swim in the water (some staying in for hours at a time) to retrieve golf balls that didn't find the putting surface.

It was because of this that a lady (name escapes me at the moment and whose husband was president at Philmont (?) at the time, scored a 137 on the Binniekill hole. This includes a constant stream (pardon the pun) of stroke and distance penalties assessed by her loving husband for each shot that didn't clear the water.

I can't quite decide who is the more impressive... the husband as a stickler for the rules or the wife for sticking to them... Either way, it must have been a COLD night later in the Buckwood Inn!  

Phil,

That would be Ellis Gimbel, I think.

[Dave Maberry]

Here's a link from Golf World last summer discussing history, possible restoration issues and constant flooding threats.
http://www.golfdigest.com/golfworld/2007/08/gw20070810stachura
Dave

[Tom_Doak]

It's the 16th hole which crosses the branch of the river ... the green is in the bottom of the aerial photo, at the right on the bank of the creek.

I was surprised to find that over half of the original Tillinghast green locations are still in use, but only four or five holes play in the same direction as they did originally; others approach from what was the back of the original green.  I don't know if they rebuilt those greens entirely when they went to 27 holes or not; nearly all of the greens on the island have had to be torn up multiple times over the years due to flooding.

[Joe Bausch]

I hope the labels don't require too much squinting, but here is the routing of Shawnee in 1938 (1T = 1 tee; 1G = 1 green, etc).

[R_Paulis]

What does the aerial look like in modern times? I remember Shawnee having numerous trees lining the fairways. But that was 20 years ago so maybe my memory is failing me.

Some thoughts come back - seeing glimpses of a swollen Delaware through the dense growth and trees at the edge of the island. And the shrill sound of the cicadas interuppted by the occasional thud of a canoer's oar. I had to take my mind off an awful corporate outing. A shotgun start combined with intense heat and humidity made for one long day.

[Joe Bausch]

Here is a current Google aerial.  It appears on the big island only #7 is similar to 1938 (and #16).