[Jim Sweeney]

PLay one round at Mid Pines with Hickories.

[Tim Book]

Since it appears that a number of you have spent quite a bit of time in Pinehurst I'll thread jack and ask 'Are there any off-course expierences that shouldn't be missed?'

Our crew of mainly 'left coasters' will expierence Pinehurst for the first time in April.  I believe we have saved enough to tackle the best coures #2,#4, #8, Pine Needles and Tobacco Rd, but don't know much about the village.  We usually commiserate about birdies lost over a steak, beer or ballgame?

[Chip Gaskins]

the bar at the Pine Crest Inn.  some say its chezzy, some say its too small, whatever you say about it, it shouldn't be missed.  there is a chipping game into the fireplace that i have never seen anyone pull off, but i have heard crenshaw made it several times in a row.

the front porch at the Pine Crest is also a very popular hang out.

the Pinehurst Hotel has a real putting green just to the left as you walk in that you can use at night (there is a light) for great post drinks betting.

[Steve Kline]

I've been going to Pinehurst for almost 18 years - at least 3 times a year since my parents have a place there. The best restaurant in all of Pinehurst is The Barn. Every group we have taken to Pinehurst has loved that place. Great prime rib and wine selection. Casual enough you can go there right from the golf course. There are a number of chain restaurants in Pinehurst now - Outback, Bonefish Grill, etc. We ate at a Japanese place in the village this spring that was good. Also the Pinecrest Inn is good and there is a bar within walking distance of that is in the basement of the building - cool place with live music. Elliot's on Linden is excellent, but not cheap. A tremendous chef at the restaurant that uses seasonal ingredients and unusual meats - they had rack of elk one time I was there. My wife and I tend to be vegetarians. We went to Elliot's once and just asked the chef to make us a three course meal that wasn't on the menu - it was one of the best meals I have ever eaten anywhere. I wouldn't go there right from the course though. Also Nina's near the intersection of Rtes 211 and 5 is good.

As for the golf - obviously #2 is the best. Pine Needles, with the recent renovations is not far behind though. Great course, fun to play, less of struggle than #2. Mid Pines is fun but the condition is never great. Tobacco road is fun but a 40 minute drive from the village. Talamore is enjoyale. Mid South has become one of the favorites for guys we take down every spring. Little River and Legacy are okay. The Pit is a very poor man's version of TR. The Pine Wild courses are not bad either. Of the other Pinehurst resort courses, I'll put them in order of how much I would want to play them if I couldn't get on #2 - #8, #7, #6, #4, #5, #1, #3. In my opinion they just totally ruined #4 with the redesign after the first open. I'd probably even rather play #5 ahead of #4.

[David Neveux]

There is this fun loving bar called THE GOLD CLUB.....draw your own assumptions.  My crew and I have shared some real post round laughs here.  


P.S.  We found free passes at the sports bar just down the street.  

[Evan_Smith]

Steve Kline is 100% correct when he said they ruined #4.  It went from being almost as good as #2, to being something I wouldn't pay more then $75 to play.  Club Corp changed it all in the name of the mighty dollar.  They wanted to charge a big surcharge to the resort guests so they brought in a "name" architect (I guess Donald Ross wasn't good enough) to redo the course.  #5 used to be a lot of fun too, but since they changed #4, the older members don't like playing it as much and in order to appease them, they made #5 easier.  They ruined all of the green surrounds by flattening them.  I almost don't want it play it anymore either.  Too much 'What used to be' with #4 and #5.  I haven't played #8, but have only heard bad things about it.  #6 is a great golf course too as is #7 but I haven't played it since they did some work on it.  #1 and #3 are a lot of fun, but very short, though if they charged $40, I'd play them everyday!

I guess not enought people have played Pinewild for people to talk about the great courses there.  I used to be a member at Pinewild and I rank both courses just behind #2 and Pine Needles.  I haven't played Forrest Creek so that's why I can't rank it ahead of Pinewild.  Both courses at Pinewild (the original Magnolia by Gene Hamm and the Holly by Gary Player) are plenty long and both different from each other that I can't decide which I would rather play if I could only play one of them.

I don't know if Sean Arble is still reading this, but Hyland Hills is an outstanding layout, but the conditioning isn't always up to snuff.  The greens are usually great (all that matters to me if the price is right) but the key is to find out when the cheap rate starts.  The time changes seasonally (between noon and 3pm), but you can play the course for about $25 including cart (it's very walkable, but there is a lot of elevation change) and besides Southern Pines is the best deal in the area.  Though, Southern Pines tried to charge my dad's group $70 in mid Oct. last year so they played elsewhere.  The one thing about Hyland Hills is that the 6th and 12th greens need to be exploded and rebuilt.  There is so much slope on them that they are almost unputtable except for a few pin positions.

There is not a lot of night life other than what is mentioned in the other posts.  It's a small little town and golf is number one.  I will second that the Barn is a great restaurant.  Also, on 15/501 down in Aberbeen is Bob's Barbeque which is always packed.

[John Moore II]

David-I think the clubs name might actually be Pure Gold...again draw your own assumptions. Hyland Hills has changed much recently though, the conditioning has really come around.
-Evan- You're right about the Magnolia at Pinewild, I want to say its the longest course in the Sandhills. #8 is a good course really, it has some odd looks though because they commissioned Fazio to design a course for hosting tournaments, and they have had some fairly large ones, the National Club Pro Championship was there a few years ago. John's Seafood on 15/501 is a good place to eat as well. BTW-I don't own it or have any affiliation with it, its just good.

[CJ Carder]

The best restaurant in all of Pinehurst is The Barn. Every group we have taken to Pinehurst has loved that place. Great prime rib and wine selection. Casual enough you can go there right from the golf course.

Here's another vote for The Barn.  Just ate there last night as a matter of fact... salad bar, beer, potato skins appetizers, 10 oz NY Strip... $32.  Just great food, down-home service, I go there at least once every time I'm in Pinehurst.

I'll throw my own 2 cents in w/r/t the golf packages... we got in on the $252 on #2 deal, which was 1 night lodging in The Carolina, breakfast buffet, and a round on #2 for - you guessed it - $252.  We got the round in just before the winter storm hit - high 40s, no wind, we walked (of course) and we were absolutely fine.  Except I haven't seen those greens roll that fast in the winter time in a while... wow.  

Still a great time.

[Chip Gaskins]

we got in on the $252 on #2 deal, which was 1 night lodging in The Carolina, breakfast buffet, and a round on #2 for - you guessed it - $252.

Wow!  I assume that is the Tuesday night rate, on January 7th, after a big group canceled???  You could never plan ahead expecting to get that rate, no?

Chip

[CJ Carder]

we got in on the $252 on #2 deal, which was 1 night lodging in The Carolina, breakfast buffet, and a round on #2 for - you guessed it - $252.

Wow!  I assume that is the Tuesday night rate, on January 7th, after a big group canceled???  You could never plan ahead expecting to get that rate, no?

Chip

They have something close to that rate every year.  Between the Evergreen package, the Acura package, and then the $252 on #2 deal, if you go during the right months to Pinehurst, you can get some cherry deals.  

Problem is, you wind up with what's happened to us lately... we drove down Friday morning, played #2 Friday afternoon, were going to play Tot Hill Farm and Tobacco Road on Saturday and Sunday and ended up just coming back home thanks to the winter storm that blew through here.  Same weekend last year... everyone was in shorts and golf shirts like it was mid-May.

[David Neveux]

Johnny,

Thank you for the correction.  I apparently wasn't of a sound mind on the way in or the way out.  Although then again, I've been there twice!!  You're are right however, the name of the place / club is Pure Gold, and what a treasure it is!!  My recommendation is to save all funds for potential GF at no. 2 or Forest Creek if that is an option.  However in my experience you never really plan to end up at a place called Pure Gold, it just tends to happen after the perfect amount of COLD BEER.  This post actually makes me realize how much I am going to miss the usual trip to the area in mid-March.  I'll settle out of court this time for a trip to the Masters.  Pure Gold it is,  Cheers,

David Neveux.

[SPNC_Chris]

Since it appears that a number of you have spent quite a bit of time in Pinehurst I'll thread jack and ask 'Are there any off-course expierences that shouldn't be missed?'

Our crew of mainly 'left coasters' will expierence Pinehurst for the first time in April.  I believe we have saved enough to tackle the best coures #2,#4, #8, Pine Needles and Tobacco Rd, but don't know much about the village.  We usually commiserate about birdies lost over a steak, beer or ballgame?

For some of us locals, one of the preferred spectator activities is people-watching the groups of golfers who come into town. The Pinecrest is good for that, but it can be crowded. Dugans, the restaurant with the basement bar another poster mentioned, is good both for watching/eavesdroppping both the customers inside and through the big front window.

That said, there are quite a few good places to eat in the area without going to a chain. Certainly in you want a pretty casual atmosphere and a big steak the Barn is a good place to go. our favorite restaurant in Southern Pines is Ashtens www.ashtens.com The Bell Tree in downtown is a nice smoke-free tavern with lots of big screens for whatever games are on. For pizza, try Vitos

[AndrewB]

I've never seen the redesigned #4, but in the year or two after they finished that work I heard some very positive comment about the course.  The people I heard these comments from were mostly college players and aspiring professionals.  Some said it was better than #2 then.

Hearing that and then the above negative comments has me a bit curious about the course.  Can anyone characterize the nature of the changes and why some might feel so strongly positive about the course while others would feel so strongly negative?

[Greg Krueger]

Andrew, I played it a few years ago and really enjoyed it. I think the reason a lot people don't like it is, #1 it was done by Fazio and #2 it was supposed to be a tribute to Donald Ross and it has a bunch of pot bunkers that apparently Ross did not do muich of. I thought it was very good, just not great.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Andrew,

I am not strongly negative or positive on the course; however, comments comparing it in any way other than geographical proximity to #2 are a whole nuther thing.

For starters:
You can lose your ball on at least three holes I recall off the top of my head (water).
Greens have less convexity, more concavity, than #2
Par defended more stringently off the tee, not so much defended from the green backwards.

A better comparison is to #7 IMHO.

Mark

[Mark Smolens]

Mark, you may be correct, but compared to the #4 course that we played 15 years ago, I thought the Fazio version was great fun.  The old #4 seemed short and outdated.  I still thought #4 was better than #6, tho I liked # 8 a great deal --except for that hole where four of my wedges got stuck in a tree -- it's okay I got two of them back!

[John Moore II]

Andrew--The changes to #4 are disliked, especially by people on this site, because it was done by Fazio, as has been said before. He was brought in to completely redesign the golf course and he did. It has a lot of pot bunkers in the fairways and around the greens, something Ross hardly ever did. But it was done in order to give the club another tournament course at the main clubhouse. I have nothing against the course itself, other than that they basically bulldozed a Donald Ross golf course in order to make more money.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

I know Pinehurst pretty well so here is what I think--

I will reccomend staying at the Pinecrest, and throwing your keys to Peter Barret, and get them back when you are heading out. Get the Pork Chops.

I think the best way to enjoy yourself is to stay as local as possible. There are plenty of great options for this style of a trip.

Pinehurst combined with the PineCrest around your time is about as relaxed as you can get.

I love Mid Pines, and everything about it. Play Pine Needles in the morning. Mid Pines represents some great Donald Ross, fun greens, nice par 5's and some great par 4's. 2 awesome par 3's in my opinion. Most of all it hasn't changed a bit, from the lockeroom to the 12th green. Thats something special--So I would love to see as much support to the place as possible.

Number 2, 7, and 8 are my choices at the resort. I must say though I can't stand the resort itself, and everything about it!

Forest Creek is good stuff. local as well.

Tobacco is good, but I would say only make the drive if your playing 36 holes, minimum.
 
-Mike

[jim_lewis]

Here is my take on #4.

Pinehurst #4 had gone through many changes since it was originally designed by Donald Ross. The result was a fun, not too difficult course that many of us enjoyed playing. Many oldtimers around here claimed the original #4 was far superior and that it had been ruined. In any case, very few objected to the redesign done in 1999 by Fazio on the basis that he was destroying a sacred Ross course.

The following explanation for the redesign was offered by Club Corps and the architect. The resort wanted a companion to #2 that would offer a similar stern test for tournament play, and they wanted one that plays out of the same clubhouse. They were aware that the US Amateur (and some other tournaments) require two courses for the qualifiying rounds, and they want two that will yield similar scores. That was the charge given Fazio, and I think that is what he produced. I assume that may have helped Pinehurst get the Amateur. The course is definitely tougher than it used to be. The green complexes are more difficult, and there is far more sand. There was always more water than on #2. Most of the higher handicap members don't play it that much. The routing was changed a lot. Some corriders were eliminated and some new holes were built on neighboring land. The biggest valid complaint I hear is that the first and 18th green complexes are rediculously difficult. If Fazio was trying to create "Ross greens", he sure missed the mark on those two.

The course has about 180 bunkers. Many of the small fairway bunkers are clustered in groups of 3 or 4 making them play like one. The architect pointed out one thing different about the bunkers from most. On most sites bunkers are built in a manner to avoid water running into them. Because of the sand base here in Pinehurst, he was able and chose to build bunkers that allow water AND GOLF BALLS to run into them.

Overall, I think the new #4 is better than its immediate predecessor, and I put it in the middle of the pack of Fazio courses I have played. Being located in Pinehurst it does have the advantage of draining well and be playable year round.

Jim

[Mark Bourgeois]

Hey Johnny and Jim, what's the latest on #1?

Mark

[John Moore II]

I think that #1 is due to reopen in March or April, at the start of the season.

[hhuffines]

I walked #1 in Dec. and am excited about it for the Spring, especially since my 11 yr old is becoming a golfer.  The work is much like PCC's other work done recently on #5 but they seem to have kept a lot of Ross features.  It should be a lot of fun.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Richard Mandell's book notes that #1 was far more popular than #2 for a looooong time.

[Steve Kline]

I couldn't care less who redesigned #4 - I think it is a very mediocre course at best. The difficulty doesn't bother me since I'm a plus handicap. The attempt seemed to be to have greens like #2 with the runoffs on the side - except the greens sit up even higher than #2. The first green was ridiculous when originally redesigned - I couldn't even hold a sand wedge on it. Since it has been enlarged and is fair. The front of the third green is very, very difficult and the 18th green is just plain dumb. The shot is generally 200 yards or so and uphill to a green you should be hitting a wedge to.

All of the pot bunkers seem totally out of character for Pinehurst - although I'm not sure I've ever been one. I don't think they come into play much off the tee as I find the course pretty generous. But my dad, who is a member and high single digit handicap, gets in them a lot. He hates the course.

Three of the four par 3's are virtually identical. Downhill and about 200 yards. I hit the same club on each of them. That is very, very boring to me.

The lay out isn't that much different than the previous version of #4. They could have lengthend that version, shaved down the areas around the greens (they had more Ross like slopes around them than the current #4 but were covered in rough), put in new grass on the greens, and added some scruffy sandy areas like Pinehurst had in the days of old. That would have saved a bunch of money and been a better course.

In fact, the best thing they could have done was build a course of modern day length but in the visual and playing style of Pinehurst in the early 1900's. That would have been something interesting and unique. Instead we get a course that isn't much different than anything else.

While Pinehurst has way more courses, is easier to get go, and perhaps more economical there are only two courses in the area that I've played that I would play instead of playing any of the courses at Bandon - #2 and Pine Needles. So, in my opinion, Pinehurst has lost some of its luster as a place I would want to go if I were looking at golf a golf trip destination

[Evan_Smith]

I couldn't care less who redesigned #4 - I think it is a very mediocre course at best. The difficulty doesn't bother me since I'm a plus handicap. The attempt seemed to be to have greens like #2 with the runoffs on the side - except the greens sit up even higher than #2. The first green was ridiculous when originally redesigned - I couldn't even hold a sand wedge on it. Since it has been enlarged and is fair. The front of the third green is very, very difficult and the 18th green is just plain dumb. The shot is generally 200 yards or so and uphill to a green you should be hitting a wedge to.

All of the pot bunkers seem totally out of character for Pinehurst - although I'm not sure I've ever been one. I don't think they come into play much off the tee as I find the course pretty generous. But my dad, who is a member and high single digit handicap, gets in them a lot. He hates the course.

Three of the four par 3's are virtually identical. Downhill and about 200 yards. I hit the same club on each of them. That is very, very boring to me.

The lay out isn't that much different than the previous version of #4. They could have lengthend that version, shaved down the areas around the greens (they had more Ross like slopes around them than the current #4 but were covered in rough), put in new grass on the greens, and added some scruffy sandy areas like Pinehurst had in the days of old. That would have saved a bunch of money and been a better course.

In fact, the best thing they could have done was build a course of modern day length but in the visual and playing style of Pinehurst in the early 1900's. That would have been something interesting and unique. Instead we get a course that isn't much different than anything else.

What he said!  

Steve, thanks for saving me the time to type all of this out.  I have exactly the same thoughts.  There are only a couple of new holes on Fazio's #4 as he used most the corridors of the old course.  He did move a lot of earth and make old, classic bunker complexes into unnatural looking pot bunkers.  The old course was plenty hard from the back tees and there was room to lengthen it to make it more difficult for today's equipment.  It still really steams me that Club Corp did this, and I too don't care that it's a Fazio course.  I have nothing against him.

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