Southern Pines rumors??

[Brad Tufts]

Ryan Simper and I played SPCC during my little silly-season sojourn to Raleigh two weekends ago.

The course was solid as ever, and the greens were the best I had seen them over 3 or 4 plays (twice in 3/03, once in 3/04 at least).  They told us to bear with the bunker renovation, as some are still harder with the old sand, and some are softer with the new, lighter sand.  I beleive I have read in Richard Mandell's book (as well as on here in the F.I.) that he is working with the club on the project.

We played with a local pro (Whispering Pines) with Mass. golf ties, who said that there are potential plans to revive the 3rd "little" nine, and build houses on one of the current nines.

So, with the renovation work going on, this doesn't seem congruent with selling one nine and reviving the old one.  Anyone have relevant info?  Was this guy just blowing smoke?  

WP is run by the same management company organization as SPCC at the moment, I would imagine that the company is this pro's employer.

As an aside, if anyone or the Elks had the money, there would be a great opportunity with that cleared former 9 to build holes with the old, scrubby, sandy edges like all the Pinehurst/Southern Pines courses were at one point, a bit like some of the edges highlighted in the Wilmington Muni profile on this site.

[Craig Disher]

That is an interesting rumor. Since the 9s don't start and end at the clubhouse, SPCC would have to carve out a 9 from the current 18. The 1940 aerial that was posted a while ago shows what looks like a short hole playing to the left of #4. The green is very close to the original 16th tee. Recreating that hole sets up a tight 9 holes leaving a majority of the acreage, and some of the best holes, available for housing. Playing 1-4, a short, new 5, 16-18, and then the Cardinal 9 is a fall-off from the current 18, to say the least.

I wonder if the lost 5th hole was the connection to 16-18 when SPCC was just 9 holes. Or perhaps it was a 19th hole that allowed a convenient 9 hole routing.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Brad,

You mean houses literally would be built "on" nine holes, as in "over" the nine holes, as in NLE the nine?

I don't have the NC Penal Code in front of me, but that IMHO would constitute felony architecturecide of Lido scale.

Grrrr....

Mark

[Craig Disher]

Mark,
You've seen the homes that have popped up next to the #4 fairway. When they appeared, I had a queasy feeling that they wouldn't be the last.

In the golf course vs homes battles, do golf courses ever win?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Well, if they can't win on a significant, primal work of a significant architect in the "American St. Andrews of Golf," then they ain't winning nowhere.

Possibilities:
1. Public pressure. I remember talking to the curator of the Guggenheim once and he talked about what a pain it could be running the place because, "Try to change a doorknob and every architect in the world is jumping down my g--d--n neck."
2. Any "designated green space" laws? That's what saved The Addington
3. Any other law relating to historic value.

I agree though: this is a country that destroys its history.  I guess that's what makes us young!  Did you know: the median age of commercial structures in the United States is estimated to be...5 years!

Establishing the provenance of this course grows in importance in light of this "rumor"...

Mark

[John Moore II]

I saw this topic on this site and since I work for the company that manages SPCC, I thought I would try to get rid of any rumors about the club. There is currently no plans to close down any part of the golf club. All 18 holes currently in operation are to stay in operation. The old 9 hole that are not currently open will at some point in the future be reopened. This however will not take place until the current 18 are restored to quality. There is also plans to restore/rebuild a very old original 9 holes to go with the current 9 that is closed. It will probably be at least 5 years until the old 9 is open and 10 years until another 9 is open. The Southern Pines Elks Club is however talking about selling a bit of land that borders the club on the backside near hole 6, near the lake/swampland. I hope this has worked to stop any rumors about this club, there is no intention to close down anything and destroy any of Donald Ross's work.

[Craig Disher]

John,
The breeze you may have felt was caused by the sighs of relief from those of us who love the course. Thanks for the encouraging news, especially the interest in opening all 18 of the closed holes. From what I've seen nearly all the land that contained the 9 that was closed in the 30s is still undeveloped. It also may contain a few old bunker, tee, and green remnants. I tried to find some a while ago but the undergrowth was just too dense and I gave up.

[Mark Bourgeois]

John,

Thank you for the response.  Can you tell us a little more about the company's plans to restore to "quality?"

I envy the opportunity before your colleagues and you.  With proper maintenance and little bit of marketing this course should rise to a prominent position in Pinehurst as well as in the career and work of Donald Ross. (Assuming he did it!)

Cheers
Mark

[Brad Tufts]

Thanks for your response John.

The plan of which you spoke seems to follow along with the bunker project, and restoration/revitalization of SPCC.  I would be interested also in following along with the new plans as they come out in the next decade!  

[John Moore II]

the quality of the course should be equal to what you see at Foxfire and Whispering Pines. Depending on how you like golf courses, that is either good of bad. There is a project working right now to restore the bunkers, I am not sure what is involved in that beyond simply putting sand in them. I have also heard talk of working 419 Bermuda into the fairways. If you try to find anything of the old old 9 holes, it will be very hard. Probably the only way possible would be to get an aerial map from the archives in pinehurst and work from there, they are totally grown in and the "restoration" would be more of a "reconstruction" since there is nothing there to restore. Oil and Sand Greens have also been mentioned, however, I am not sure what the demand would be for that.
John

[Craig Disher]

John,
In case you didn't see this in an earlier thread, this is the oldest aerial of SP that I've found - 1940. The single red lines show where the lost, lost nine probably was located. Surprisingly, most of that land is still undeveloped.

[John Moore II]

I had never seen that picture, it is real cool though. I am sure the course managers will use it should they finalize plans to rebuild

[SPNC_Chris]

Unless my bearings are off, the land is not there for the six eastern-most holes. There are houses there. From what I can tell, only two of the holes could be rebuilt. They would be the two that run in-line from the 4th green on the "existing" Cardinal 9 down to the right side of #7 (the eastern-most yellow hole- the par three). Just to the east of those two holes are lots of houses.

Plans I've seen from the 70's (Tom Jackson) incorporate at least one of the long-ago abandoned holes and use up much of the undeveloped land in the middle of the property that is not wetlands.

As far as the likelihood of any housing being built on the bulk of the sites of the long-ago abandoned or recently-abandoned holes, I'll say it is unlikely any time soon if at all. The property is not zoned residential and is unlikely to be changed. As a member of the Town Council, I can tell you we are not very interested in seeing it being anything other than wetlands and a golf course.

That said, there will be some more housing going up near the fifth green. As there are no site plans yet, I have no idea how close it will be or what kind of vegetative buffers, if any, will be there.