[PThomas]

I haven't played here, unfortuantely, but the pictues I've seen of the course look great...it looks like a big, bold course built on a large scale

thoughts from those who have been there would be appreciated

[Jeff_Brauer]

Paul,

Since we aren't discussing a Tom Doak course, I figured I better respond, since no one else will.

While RJ Daley hasn't been there, I expect him to chime in that the course is forumlaic and hasn't made the most of the property, which he can tell from pictures.

I happen to disagree, but then, what do I know?  

I do know that I consulted there last year and they are reducing the bunkers somewhat to save money, but only in some of the non key play areas. I am glad they consulted me, and I agree with most of the changes.

I also know they water the fw and greens about once every four days, much less than average courses, as part of Audubon. however, the Zoysia fw may never play as firm and fast as other courses.  In fact, it plays all of its 7600 yards, and more in the wind!

Lastly, despite a Slope Rating of 151, golfers repor that its quite playable at forward tees, because of its width.  Part of that width is designed in because of the site's expansive scale, and also because we knew it would be windy. Also, with a subsurface of rock, we didn't move much earth and we knew some of the fw would have signifigant cross slope.

Now, I happen to know that a ball will stay put on up to 11% slopes on average Zoysia (vs. about 6% on bent) which figured into my design. However, the fact that I consciously measured such things is generally considered to be a major flaw in my architecture in some circles.  

However, golfers report that they like to hold the fw with tee shots that land there.  Well, like me, what do they know?  Only the intelligentsia of golf club atlas. com could possibly know a good design when they see it (through pictures) right?  And, of course, since Doak or CC didn't design it, it can't be any damn good, despite a few magazines ranking it as the top public course in Kansas.

And, as Forrest Gump would say, "That's all I have to say about that!"

[PThomas]

thanks for your thoughts Jeff....I hope i get to play there someday soon!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Paul,

If you want some real thoughts, IM me. I was sort of combining a few threads in my answer, primarily the ones stating (quite accurately) that a serious discussion here of courses not done by Doak or CC is in a race with the end of the world as to when it might happen.

And, right now, the end of the world has a substantial lead!

[Ken Moum]

I've played it, and it is a big golf course. The scale of the landforms in that part of Kansas is pretty amazing.

The wind there is often very strong, so it's real test of your ball striking.

It's been awhile since I played it and I don't remember the details all that well. I do remember that played the tees two up from the tips and got killed.

I only live 50 miles away, so I need to get over there again.

What's amazing to me is the 64 shot by a K-State golfer @ 7,525 yards.

Ken

Ken

[Sean_A]

Jeff

To things stand out after a 10 minute look at the website.  The par 3s look to be quite interesting - especially #11.  A load of fairways are split.  Do you mind discussing these elements of the course?

Ciao

[Jeff_Brauer]

Sean,

Interesting you would say that.  As a group, I'm not sure they are among my best.  The 11th was featured in Chris Millards book a few years ago, though, so some agree.

The 5th has gotten most discussion here - for the somewhat humorous/symbolic Wildcat Paw. I actually like this one, and it was one of the first holes built, which caused some consternation for its "r" shape.  I took great care to allow putting around the corner, by using the collar slope above the back right pin to bring the ball back.

The 8th is a reverse slope green, downhill. Even with balls coming almost straight down, shots hit and roll out a little and it must be accounted for. I had planned a cluster of bunkers on the right, but Jim Colbert wanted fw chipping as an open invitation to bail out right from the creek and deep bunker right.

11 is by far the most difficult from the back tees, but there is a big split between those and the mid tees.  It was one of the last holes routed in to have  a few more holes in the trees, even though I don't generally like par 3's at 2 or 11. Because its a tight site, on an angle across the line of play, the green came out small and well guarded - one of my conscious decisions to create a small green for a long approach (i.e., go against standard "forumulaics" to really demand precision, for a change of pace and/but knowing that the golfer has the advantage of playing it from the tee (Ross always said par 3's could be a little more difficult)

17 is a semi Redan, played into the wind.  Colbert thought this one was too tough, and also felt we did a better redan type shot on 4- a long par 4 that is conceptually similar to 13 at Pine Valley.....

1 and 10 have split second landing area, and 13 has a split landing area, with one option to go for the green.  If I was doing that hole again, I might not be so obvious about the split fw - we had a lot of discussions that the safe fw didn't have to go that far left to be an effective hole, nor the bunker that much dividing the fw.

FWIW, my favorite holes are 6 and 7.

[Daryn_Soldan]

Having played several hundred rounds at Colbert Hills I'll offer a few of my thoughts on the course.

I'm sad to see some of the bunkers getting smaller or dissapearing, but understand the neccesity with the current situation. Overall the width does make the course very playable in almost all conditions. I think the biggest difference when the wind is down is that it makes it much easier to find the fairways. With wide fairways and no wind you can let it out off the tee without as much worry of finding the trouble. A good college player will have a lot of birdie chances when approaching every green from the fairway, even at 7500 yards. I didn't see Robert Streb's 64, but was along for a couple 66s when that was the course record. Both were calm days with the players taking advantage of the par 5s and hitting a bunch of greens the rest of the way around. A lot of the good scores at Colbert Hills have also come during the period when the zoysia is dormant. I've always thought that the course plays shortest on warm spring or fall days with dormant turf.

The first three holes are all anyone would want when played into the strong southwest wind we see most of the year. I've contended many times that tee shot on the first may be one of the most difficult openers that I've seen anywhere when played into a stiff breeze. As with most courses, choosing the correct tees does play a major role in one's enjoyent of the course. Because of the higher, more expose location of most of the back tees at Colbert Hills this seems to be of particular importance. I know one group of good players that will choose one of three sets of tees just depending on the wind that day.

There are some interesting ground options approaching and around several greens including the 4th, 8th, and 17th that are fun to play when the ground is firm. There are sweeping slopes from the right and into the 4th and 17th greens that allow for shots to be played well short and chased on. My only complaint about these has been that the small swales/depressions just short of the edge of these greens that keep water from sheeting onto the surface tends to stay wet (maybe unavoidable) or simply stop balls that would just have enough pace to run out to a front hole location (guess I need more pace).

A question for Jeff - did you consider having steeper slopes with the direction of play on these approaches to greens, particularly with most players slicing the ball into the slope? You would be glad to know that it was a very confounding learning process when the course first opened to figure out how to play these approaches in a variety of conditions. Plenty of days at golf practice were spent cursing what we thought were pretty good shots. This was also the case from the back tee on 11 as its just plain difficult to stop a shot from 225 yards on the left half of that green. From my experience, better players who play that hole from the back couple sets of tees really hate it and most people who play it from further forward like it. Personally I'm more of a fan of the hole from about 200 yards.

Overall my favorite holes on the course are 2 (no one else seems to like this one), 6, 10 and 15. I still need some convincing on holes 7, 13 and 17  

-Daryn

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