[James Bennett]

On the other Rustic Canyon thread, Tom Paul asked Scott Weersing ...

' Scott: Would you mind telling me what you think of that 12th hole at Rustic Canyon? Go into as much detail as you'd like '

I checked my photo's, and the hole merits a thread of its own.  My recollection is that the hole's description could be akin to that from Shakespeare's (sp?) Richard III  (no, not Farnsworth).  "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times."  That sort of stuff.

How can a short par 4 have such a wide fairway, have an unbunkered green, be on largely flat land and still be a challenge to play?  The hole is so simple, yet it is so complex.  It is probably a poster child for the importance of the green in defining and defending a hole, including its defense from technology.

First, the simple part - the tee shot.  You can go anywhere but the green is to the left.  If the driving range fences are less obtrusive, then an aesthetic improvement has been made.  And yes, that is Joe Perches and David Moriarty (Mr $0.99 a golf club) in picture.  The Tominator was en-cart.



Second, the approach to the green.  The photo highlights the build strategy of all of Rustic Canyon greens, with significant surrounds grassed in a similar style to the green.  Nothing too difficult here, is there?  No bunkers, the green appears to be receptive to a pitch.  A very simple hole don't you think?  



Thirdly, the green.  I think the mound in the middle of the green is more obvious now. The single critical feature in the architecture of the hole.  And, remember, this hole is being played 'down canyon' so there is a little front-to-back slope involved.  It takes an imaginative golfer and a well executed shot to get adjacent to the pin and to get his three (yes, it was my one good hole for the day).  The putt for the left hand ball on the green would have been quite exciting.  I can't recall what happened.



I expect the challenges and positional play for this hole vary with the day's pin position.  So, you may well be on fairway with your tee-shot but are you in position to play your second to get near the pin, on such an EASY hole.  Perhaps not.  Perhaps for next week's pin position.

It is a fun hole that rewards some thought combined with skill.

What do you think Tom Paul?

James B

[Marty Bonnar]

now, I'm no expert but...

Shurely you mean Dickens?

(Tale of Two Cities, unless I am well off the mark...)

FBD.

[James Bennett]

Martin

my bad.  I was sure there was a Shakespeare line that was similar.  Too long ago for me to remember.  Anyway, the Dickens' quote follows.

James B

   

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to heaven, we were all going direct the other way - in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only.
        Charles Dickens, A Tale of Two Cities
        English novelist (1812 - 1870)

[David Stamm]

Ah, discussing the architectural merits of a hole. This is why we're here.


While I'm not sure if this hole is as good as it's brother on the front, the 3rd, I've grown to love this hole. When the pin is on the knob you see in James pic, it's very difficult to even secure a par. It's amazing how many are tempted, if they are long enough, to go for this green. I presume their thinking is is that the hole is difficult by taking the conventional route so to hell with it, I'm going for it. I'm not sure if I've seen another hole that looks so absurdly easy to the eye and yet prove to be so difficult. While many holes at RC are defended primarily at the green, 12 is defended SOLELY at the green. And it absolutely works. It takes alot of guts to do a hole like this, and Gil, Jim and Geoff certainly designed a great example of less is more.

[rjsimper]

My only gripe with the 12th is something non-GCA related - the fact that half the time it's a crapshoot on whether the ideally placed pitch and run landing in the collar will splatter or take off.

Otherwise, I love the hole, it's a great follow-up to the difficult 11th, and it's one of the best places to grab a crafty win on a hole when your opponent doesn't realize that anything right of center on the green ends up in the collection area.

[Jon Spaulding]

James; thanks for bringing this up. Although some have attempted to lobby me , this is still one of the weaker holes on the property. The sole defense of the hole is that devilish lump in the green; I personally prefer holes that challenge for the duration of play.

Having said that, on a course as important as RC, any hole less than perfect will have detractors. I've yet to see a course that didn't have similar issues.

Yes, the green is challenging.....but are we saying that a hole with nothing to offer other than a a hokey pin placement is the definition of "good"?

[James Bennett]

Jon, Ryan

firm approaches will lift the golf experience at Rustic Canyon.  I would love to see the course after a year where some surrounds renovation (coring, scarifying and in particular heavy dusting with sand) had occurred.  Perhaps in 2010 or so when I might get to see it again.

I have only played and seen Rustic's back nine on one occasion.  Your experience is obviously greater.  Is there a different preferred line of play depending on the pin position?  Are there some locations where right is better than left for the approach?  My 'take' on the one occasion of play was that generally left was better than right.

James B

[Mike_Cirba]

It's good to see Mr. Moriarty looking well.

[James Bennett]

Moriarty - HICKORY dickory dock, another one flushed like a jock.



James B

ps he is a sinister golfer, isn't he.

[Mike_Cirba]

James,

We've had our differences, certainly, but he looks to me like he needs to get his contrarian ass back here.  

Anyone with that kind of lefty weight shift going on needs to be doing more discussing than playing!  

I can say that in full knowledge that we're both fully and sadly simpatico on that point!  

[James Bennett]

Mike

as an outsider looking in, it seems a bit like "East meets West".

Dave was great fun, and he is a better researcher/scholar of golf history than he is a player.  However, he knows how to have fun when he plays golf.  He is full of 'action' when he swings.

James B

[R_Paulis]

I have given up on running the ball up for the most part on #12. More often than not it is damp, and even when it looks and feels dry there's a good chance it's wet. We also play early mornings so it's still a bit damp even by the time we reach the backside...

[R_Paulis]

Has anyone held the green off the tee? By the time I reach 12, there's not much chance to score low on the last third (except maybe 13), so my poor judgement takes over. A hook is attempted with the idea of running it up. More often than not, I end up turning it too much and end up in the left rough or bunker, sometimes on the apron for a putting chance, rarely over the right side.

Yeah, I know it's not the smartest play.

So is the risk/reward worth it?

[R_Paulis]

Is not the mound in the center right of the fairway about 80 - 100 yds out from green a good driving target? It's a solid wedge into the green at enough distance for spin.

Is this not the purpose for the mound in an otherwise flat broad fairway?

[ed_getka]

#12 remains one of my favorite golf holes. I am one of the lobbyists Jon refers to. Like Jon, I think the hole should be defended more than just at the green end as there is no pressure on the drive, and I notice these things being a wayward driver of the ball.
   I have found that the particular pin shown in James's photos is a little more accessible by driving past the green so your second is back up canyon a little. For those who haven't been to the course, most drives will leave a shot into the green that is perpendicular to the line of play off the tee. This also means that you are perpendicular to the "canyon effect". The property seems pretty flat to the naked eye, but has about 160' of elevation change if I remember correctly. Thus, an approach shot to that pin will have to allow for probably 5' of break to the right after the ball gets on the ground.
   The last couple of years Ryan's point about the splatter effect in the collar made the result a crapshoot, but I am happy to report that when I was there a few weeks ago the course was much more firm in the collars and overall than it has been in recent years. I really look forward to getting back down there soon.
    I don't think there are any easy pin positions on this brilliant green, and yet there is a shot or position in the fairway that will make any pin accessible. Birdies are hard to come by, unless you drive very close to the green and the pin is down low in the front, and even then if you are down-canyon at all you need a deft touch.
   What really elevates this green to world-class level is if you are out of position and still try to get aggressive and make birdie, then you are likely to eliminate the chance to make par. When you are out of position on this hole you simply have to accept that par is a good score. For instance, if you were 30 yards short of the pin and close to the green (from a drive that took the aggressive line, but came up a bit short), then birdie would be exceedingly difficult, because the approach would be almost straight down-canyon and the ball can easily get away from you and once it gets past the pin it will gather speed and end up a good 10-15 yards past. That may seem unfair, but the drive is out of position for that pin. If you simply accept that you won't have a tap in birdie putt then you play your shot left of the pin and that slope will help slow your ball down and keep it on the green. You still have a birdie putt, but it will be more like 10-15' than the 3-footer you feel you deserve.
   Needless to say, I like this hole.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm not trying to sounds like a smart ass here, but if you build any green small enough and have the majority of it be crowned, isn't this resorting to tricky of sorts to repel birdies and otherwise good scores.  Reminds me a little bit of the 2nd green at Erin Hills.

[ed_getka]

Kalen,
   This not really a crowned green. It falls off on the right side as viewed from the pix. That fall-off will take you far away from the green because it is down canyon in that direction. However, the rest of the green is a variety of slopes that make most approaches quite interesting, but there are no other fall-offs. Also, it is a decent size green. Someone else will have to chime in with sq. feet.
    Don't worry, there are plenty of people who think the green is gimmicky, but they are generally better golfers it seems, who don't have much variety in their arsenal of shots.
    Just out of curiosity, have you played the hole? Don't worry I am not trying to impugn your credibility.

[R_Paulis]

Is there another hole at RC where local knowledge and prior play benefits more? Clearly off the tee is not difficult but approach and play around the green can be frustrating to say the least.

I pulled about 40 RC cards and #12 averages out to 4.4. My average 18 score is at 88 from the blue. So, all holes being equal, I should be averaging about .89 over par each score. Since RC #12 is the 16 hanicapped hole one would assume the score would average lower.

It's rainy here today so I am reluctant to add to the depressing atmoshpere and figure out average scores for #2 or #14...

[Mike Benham]

It's good to see Mr. Moriarty looking well.

[Scott Weersing]

My thoughts on the 12th hole at Rustic Canyon:

I stand on the tee and the green is hidden by the only tree on the golf course in play. Some players think you need to hit over the tree to drive the green but that is not the best line.  

I used to take aim at one of the posts of the driving range and play a draw. Now there are no longer posts so it is harder to find a target.

I like that this hole is change from the rest of the holes on the back nine. I think each nine should have a short par 4. I would consider the hole a par 3.5 because it is a drive, chip and putt. I think the 12th hole at Rustic and the 3rd hole at Riveria could both be considered 3.5 par holes.

The green is amazing. I think a short hole should have a difficult green. The green on the 3rd hole at Rustic is rather boring and should have some more bumps in it.

The difficulty of the 12th hole depends on where the hole is placed. When I played it on January 4, the hole was on the far right, front. This is an easy pin placement. If it is up on the mound, then the hole is much harder. The one time I remember driving the green, the hole was on the mound and I had to putt up to the hole from the front of the green. I lagged my putt to four feet and made a birdie.

I really like that the hole can be played a variety of ways by a variety of players. There is no "best" way to play the hole. The hole is difficult because people think they can hit a high shot into the green and have it hold. The green slopes away from the fairway and away from the bunker, but most people don't remember this.

What is the best angle into the green? I think it is 70 yards right of the green. If you hit your drive long and right, then you have good look at the green and can see how it slopes down the canyon. The back mound is more accessible from this angle because it is more visible.

There is nothing I would change about the hole except for the walk back to the 13th tee. It tends to slow play. But not anymore so than having players try to chip back on to the green after hitting the approach over the green.

[ed_getka]

Scott,
  Interesting comment about #3 green. I don't think that one turned out quite as planned. I think the green was supposed to fall away toward the left, so that drives that bailed out right would have trouble holding the green on the approach. Not a bad little hole, but most of the work is done off the tee whereas on #12 most happens at the green end.

[David Stamm]

 I think the 12th hole at Rustic and the 3rd hole at Riveria could both be considered 3.5 par holes.

Scott, are you sure you don't mean the 10th at Riviera. The 3rd there is about 425 from the tips.

The green is amazing. I think a short hole should have a difficult green. The green on the 3rd hole at Rustic is rather boring and should have some more bumps in it.

While I agree the green isn't nearly as challenging as the 12th, the hole from the tee is far more interesting in terms of options.

 

[TEPaul]

Thank you to the guys who explained their feelings about the 12th hole and in detail.

Some of the members on here who've been here a long time will probably remember why I ask. I went out there I think in   March of 2001 with Geoff Shackelford and Hanse Co's Jim Wagner to look at the site and the plans for the holes just before the course went into construction.

I'd never been there before nor since but for some reason we spent most of our time that day on #12 and somewhat on #13 and I think either #14 or #16.

We discussed the over-all intended concept for #12 for a long time. I felt the concept was both sophisticated and somewhat risky (as I recall Shackelford did) because it might be roundly misunderstood with such a big wide fairway with basically no immediate tee shot challenge on most all of it or all of it.

I recall the intention behind the concept was to create a lot more of what we sometimes call "whole hole strategic unity", in other words to break down player fixation on just thinking in single shot increments to get them thinking more in how shots and their placements connected to one another strategically. Behr called this type of thing "unity".

I do not remember much if anything on the option of driving the green only that it was way around to the left and Geoff said it would probably be a dangerous play.

All I remember saying a bunch of times is if you're going to successfully pull of a concept like this one that green better have a ton of meaning and variablity to it that will serve to flow various consequences all the way back to the tee even if the tee shot looks like it has no real meaning.

The other thing we discussed a lot is how possible it would be for players to notice the day's pin on #12 from somewhere on #11 and if many would remember to do that because knowing that fact would be real important for them strategically when they got to the tee of #12.

It sounds to me like the concept which was only in theory then is working in play like it was intended to.

[James Bennett]

Thanks Tom, Scott and others

good discussion.  Any other holes at Rustic you would like to discuss?  (the more I think about my one play, the more that #1 intrigues me - perhaps we'll do that hole later this week).

I wish we had a couple of Rustic 'experts' available to post on this thread.

James B

[R_Paulis]

The other thing we discussed a lot is how possible it would be for players to notice the day's pin on #12 from somewhere on #11 and if many would remember to do that because knowing that fact would be real important for them strategically when they got to the tee of #12.

It sounds to me like the concept which was only in theory then is working in play like it was intended to.

Viewing #12 pin placement from #11 fairway is a big part of local knowledge play for me at RC. It's a tip I quickly learned after a massive nasty slice from #11 tee. Thinking I was so smart, I mentioned it on another site on how to play #12. Now I learn it was intended (and I think the tip is also mentioned on the RC website somewhere). Not so smart am I.

The peeks you get of #1,2,3 greens driving up the short and smooth road to the club house has some benefits. The obvious look at #5 is helpful since it's hard for me to judge the green depth on the approach. But I find a stare at #7 green is critical for it's an impossible read for me when on the fairway most times.

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