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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Spion Kop New
« on: January 04, 2008, 06:09:52 AM »
We have talked endlessly about the Redan, a hole named after hilltop fortress at Sebastopol which the British eventually took with very heavy losses.  We have talked a bit about Majuba at Burnham & Berrow.  A hole named after the battle of Majuba Hill, a defeat for the British which essentially ended the First Boer War. But have we talked about Spion Kop?  Another defeat for the British, this time in the Second Boer War.  Ironically, had the British held their nerve and not retreated, the hill would probably have remained in their hands. 

Are there any really good Spion Kop holes out there?  Does anyone have photos of Spion Kops in name or nature?   I suspect what we call "volcano" holes would be just the ticket.

Ciao
« Last Edit: March 31, 2020, 10:47:44 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Spion Kop
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2008, 07:05:59 AM »
Sean:

I have seen that name on a scorecard in Britain once or twice, but I didn't have any idea from whence it originated.

Now that I know, I can't remember which holes were named Spion Kop.

I do remember Gil Hanse telling me that one of the courses he grew up playing had a hole which played uphill all the way to a green set against the sky.  The locals called it the "Iwo Jima" hole.

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Spion Kop
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2008, 07:21:13 AM »
16th at Crail comes to mind...
although there's about at least another 6 holes at Crail which could also easily deserve the name!!!

FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Matthew Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Spion Kop
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2008, 07:28:58 AM »
In British soccer stadiums the Kop is generally the part of the ground with the best atmosphere and they are name dafter the same battle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spion_Kop_(stadia)

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Spion Kop
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2008, 07:45:32 AM »
there are certainly a number of courses with holes named 'spion kop' but maybe a good example of a template is the hill at gullane?...

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Spion Kop
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2008, 07:50:34 AM »
A quick Google search reveals that the 5th at Strathtay is named Spion Kop.  It appears from the descriptions I have seen that it is a steeply uphill drive on a par 4 with a downhill pitch.  I played Strathtay many years ago but don't remember the hole.  It's a little 9-holer with an honesty box for green fees.  What I do remember was some of the steepest climbs I have ever encountered on a golf course.

The 16th at Edzell is also called Spion Kop and is a short (302 yards) par 4.  I've never played there but they do have a 36 hole open on the Saturday before BUDA VI.

The 2nd at Traigh is also a Spion Kop but is a 450 yard par 5.

The 5th at Craigie Hill is a 376 yard par 4.

The 14th at Aberwystwyth is a 290 yard par 4.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 07:57:59 AM by Mark Pearce »
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Andrew Mitchell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Spion Kop
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2008, 08:10:42 AM »
The one in my area which comes to mind is the 8th (& 17th) at Clayton GC, a 9 hole course in Bradford. This plays as a 245 yard par 4, essentially playing the tee shot to the foot of the hill and playing up from there.

My understanding of a "spion kop" hole has always been that the green is perched at the top of a large hill, which tends to lead to difficulty in gauging the distance.  An additional difficulty at Clayton is an OOB fence immediately behind the green, meaning that you cannot hit long and hope that the slope will feed the ball back onto the green.

I did a google search for other golfing spion kops which threw up the 12th at Castlerock in Ireland and the 5th at Craigie Hill near Perth (Scotland)

Edit: Mark obviously found a few more than I did on google!
« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 08:12:50 AM by Andrew Mitchell »
2014 to date: not actually played anywhere yet!
Still to come: Hollins Hall; Ripon City; Shipley; Perranporth; St Enodoc

Matthew Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Spion Kop
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2008, 08:18:14 AM »
The 300y 5th at Kilkeel comes under this.

michael_j_fay

Re:Spion Kop
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2008, 08:22:36 AM »
Sounds like the second at Rosses Point.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Spion Kop
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2008, 08:36:24 AM »
If it weren't for gca.com, I wouldn't know what either Spion Kop or Jump the Shark meant......thanks for at least the former.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Evan_Smith

Re:Spion Kop
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2008, 08:43:32 AM »
There's a great Spion Kop at Castlerock in N. Ireland.  Though it may be a bit different than you may be thinking.  It's the 12th hole and it's actually named "Spion Kop".  It's a great par 4 of 430 yards that always seems to play into the wind when I'm there.  The 'Volcano' is in the middle of the fairway at about the 230-250 yard mark from the tee.  I would guess that the highest point would be about 12-15 feet above the surface of the fairway.  There is a little room on either side, but there are bunkers on the left and long grass if you go too far right.  I think I may have a photo, but I'll have to try to dig it out.  The best one may be from before I had a digital and I'll have to scan it first.

Edit-oops, just saw that Andrew already mentioned this one.  I'll still try to post a photo.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 08:45:34 AM by Evan_Smith »

Evan_Smith

Re:Spion Kop
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2008, 09:00:29 AM »
Well, this is sort of a photo of it.  This is from the 13th tee.  There are a bunch of people in the 12th fairway and you can make out the giant mound just to the left of the first 2 bunkers.  I'm pretty sure I took a photo from behind the mound with my film camera in 2004.  I'll dig out the photo a little later today.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Spion Kop
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2008, 09:26:53 AM »
The 16th at Crail (Balcomie) is indeed called Spion Kop, part of the ultra-quirky finishing four holes that are sort of on the backside of the clubhouse, away from the first 14 holes of the ancient links. It's a fun hole, and fits the definition broadly of a sharply uphill shot. It's a par 3 of 162 yards, but plays easily a club or two more than that. The area just beyond the tee and up the hill to the blind-ish green is all gorse and heather and junk -- real lost-ball stuff. The green is about 30 yards deep, guarded by a solitary bunker right-front. The terrain of the hole provides a modest bank to the right and rear of the green, but trouble and even OB lurks left and left-long.

The 2nd at Traigh is also known as Spion Kop, and is really a wonderful, gambling short par 5 of 452 yards. The golfer on the tee is confronted with two options -- a shot down over a valley to a fairway that swoops right around a large dune, or, a shot directly across the valley to the top of the dune, a carry of perhaps 175 yards. From the top of the dune, the green sits below and off to the right, and it isn't too much of a shot to get home in two. Going around the dune makes it much harder to get home in two, as it lengthens the hole and makes the green somewhat or totally blind.

Ironically, the opening hole at Traigh fits Evan's definition of a Spion Kop much better -- from a tee next to the simple white clubhouse, the shot is a par 3 of 130 yards that is straight uphill to a blind green set on top of a dune. Anything short is lost. An interesting opener.


Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Spion Kop
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2008, 11:52:39 AM »
The 300y 5th at Kilkeel comes under this.


Matthew, while we (two couples) were at the Walker Cup,. we stayed down in Kilkeel and drove up to Newcastle each day.

To say that Kilkeel is cuisine-challenged is putting a nice face on things!  The best restaurant in town was closed while we were there.

The Kilkeel Inn staff suggested the Kilkeel Golf Club for dinner and we wound up eating dinner there twice.  Great folks there, very nice members, lovely clubhouse with a good view over the home green below.  And the food was very good.  I do wish we'd had a chance to play as it looks like a very nice parkland course.

Learning that there is a Spion Kop hole there makes it even more enticing when I return!
« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 12:00:54 PM by Bill_McBride »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Spion Kop
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2008, 11:58:17 AM »
Well, this is sort of a photo of it.  This is from the 13th tee.  There are a bunch of people in the 12th fairway and you can make out the giant mound just to the left of the first 2 bunkers.  I'm pretty sure I took a photo from behind the mound with my film camera in 2004.  I'll dig out the photo a little later today.


That photo doesn't really do Castlerock's Spion Kop hole justice, that mound as seen from the tee is pretty imposing!  It's at least 15 feet high and, as Evan says, pretty much fills the fairway.  I managed to thread one between the mound and the right side of the fairway so I could see the green, but it was a long way home uphill from  there.  It's a daunting hole and interesting to play.

I wouldn't really call it a "Spion Kop" based on the definition which calls for a green on top of the hill - Crail's #16 is definitely one if that's the proper definition - but the Castlerock scorecard names it "Spion Kop."

Matthew Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Spion Kop
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2008, 12:03:41 PM »
The 300y 5th at Kilkeel comes under this.


Matthew, while we (two couples) were at the Walker Cup,. we stayed down in Kilkeel and drove up to Newcastle each day.

To say that Kilkeel is cuisine-challenged is putting a nice face on things!  The best restaurant in town was closed while we were there.

The Kilkeel Inn staff suggested the Kilkeel Golf Club for dinner and we wound up eating dinner there twice.  Great folks there, very nice members, lovely clubhouse with a good view over the home green below.  I do wish we'd had a chance to play as it looks like a very nice parkland course.

Learning that there is a Spion Kop hole there makes it even more enticing when I return!

Kilkeel featured quite heavily in this thread http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=31876;start=msg624768#msg624768 which highlights the good and bad points of the course. My grandparents think the food at Kilkeel Golf Club is great but althought I've alot of matchs here i've alway been last out so havn't got a chance to sample the food, just large crowds watching we win the Match ;)

tlavin

Re:Spion Kop
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2008, 12:04:50 PM »
The eleventh at Flossmoor C.C. (in south suburban Chicago, a driver/wedge from Olympia Fields North) is a Spion Kop hole.  It measures about 175 from the middle tees and plays to a very elevated green with bunkers all around the putting surface.  Flossmoor is a Tweedie & Fowler design (laid out in 1899 as the Homewood Country Club) that is currently being renovated by Ray Hearn.  I don't think that he is messing with this hole.  Flossmoor is a very interesting layout with a few quirky holes and a bunch of good ones.  Spion Kop (as it has always been named) is probably the best par 3 hole on the course.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 12:39:03 PM by Terry Lavin »

Rich Goodale

Re:Spion Kop
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2008, 12:10:56 PM »
Sean

We did talk about this 3-5 years ago.  GCA.com search geeks--"Start Your Engines!"

Rich

OK, I'm feeling particularly geeky today....

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=3024;start=msg58911#msg58911

rfg
« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 12:17:49 PM by Richard Farnsworth Goodale »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Spion Kop
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2008, 01:52:40 PM »
In British soccer stadiums the Kop is generally the part of the ground with the best atmosphere and they are name dafter the same battle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spion_Kop_(stadia)


Matthew,

Whatever you do, don't go to Liverpool and and say that in a pub close to Anfield Road. To the Scouser, there is only one Kop and it ain't in South Africa or any other football ground in England.


Bob

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Spion Kop
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2008, 02:00:35 PM »
I think it is a good thing Sean that you keep educating these guys on key episodes of South African history. With MacKenzie developing his camouflage theories down there during the Boer War as well it was obviously a fruitful time for "South African" GCA! Not sure there have been too many since!

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Spion Kop
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2008, 02:01:54 PM »
btw - "kop" is Afrikaans for "head".

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Spion Kop
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2008, 03:15:17 PM »
Although not named as such I think this definitely qualifies as being true to type.
 6th Hunstanton.  (Edited to the right course 12 months later!). 
Photo doesn’t do justice to the way the green sits right atop that hill.  The fairway is like a vast plain in front and then the ball must fly straight to its target or be repelled to a variety of hopeless positions. Making a half hearted stroke and have the ball roll back towards you is about the best fate that a failed attack can result in.


« Last Edit: January 26, 2009, 01:07:22 AM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Evan_Smith

Re:Spion Kop
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2008, 09:02:26 PM »
Darn!  I thought I had a better photo from Castlerock.  I even looked through my buddies photos and he didn't have one either.  I remember seeing a photo with the huge mound dominating the fairway.  Maybe my Dad took one.  I'll have to go through his photos the next time I'm home.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Spion Kop
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2008, 10:21:48 PM »
Darn!  I thought I had a better photo from Castlerock.  I even looked through my buddies photos and he didn't have one either.  I remember seeing a photo with the huge mound dominating the fairway.  Maybe my Dad took one.  I'll have to go through his photos the next time I'm home.

Evan, these are from the club's website, and not a lot better!

Here's from the strokesaver:



And a photo looking back from the green that makes the fairway look pretty flat!  Not sure how you could do that!



While on the subject of Castlerock, these were my favorite holes, two solid par 4s, both about 415, that climbed up to greens benched into the dunesland, both playing through dunes.

 #7 "Armchair"



And #8 "Bulldozer"



I particularly liked #8 with the drive angled across the dunes into the valley beyond, then uphill to a semi-blind green.  To the linksland!   ;D

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Spion Kop
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2008, 10:41:37 PM »

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