Apache Stronghold and Sedona golf

[Jim Johnson]

My wife and I are considering flying into Phoenix mid-May, for about one week of vacation, heading n.e. to stay and play at Apache Stronghold, then heading to the Sedona/Flagstaff area for a couple of nights and one round of golf in that area, and then 3 days hiking/camping down in the Havasu Falls canyon, before driving back to Phoenix and flying home.

Any idea what kind of conditions/weather we can expect at that time of year, at Apache Stronghold and at Sedona?

Any suggestions as to where to play in the Sedona/Flagstaff area? We just have time for one round of golf there. I'm a 12-handicap, my wife's a 30.

Thanks for any advice,
JJ

[Tom_Doak]

JJ:  That's a pretty nice time of the year in Globe -- it's heating up but not up to 100 degrees yet as in the valley.

Getting from Globe to Sedona might not be as easy as it sounds, though.

[Jim Johnson]

Tom,

We're from Canada. We're used to 8 hour drives to get anywhere.  

JJ

[Peter Nomm]

Sedona should be pretty nice in May.  The only choices in Sedona are the resort and Seven Canyons if you can get on.  I usually spend a month out there each winter so I know it pretty well if I can help in any other way.

Flagstaff - weather will be daily dependent but for the most part should be fine.  Some great privates there too - Forest Highlands and Pine Canyon.  

[Tom Yost]

Weather will be nice in May.  Dry, cool overnights, warm afternoons.

Publics in Sedona include Sedona Golf Resort (Panks) and Oak Creek CC (RTJ).   Haven't played either so I can't offer any reviews but the surrounding red rock landscapes should make either very enjoyable.

Flagstaff has virtually no public golf, but some very nice privates.

I can suggest an interesting route from Globe to Flagstaff that bypasses Phoenix and interstate highways completely and takes you from Sonoran desert to Ponderosa pine forest.


Enjoy!
Tom

[Mark Smolens]

I was at Apache Stronghold two weeks ago  -- unbelievable course, but playing condition was not so hot.  They pretty clearly don't get a lot of play out there, so I can't imagine that their maint. budget is very high.  And, despite Ran's course description, I think it would have been a pretty tough walk. . .

  There will be a couple of holes where a 30 handicap female will struggle carrying the wash (at least that was the case for my mother -- who had nasty things to say about Mr. Doak during 16 and 17), but well worth the drive from the Valley (and a scenic drive as well!).

A friend of mine was at a conf. in Dec. -- they drove up to  Sedona and he played Oak Creek CC.  The red rocks/scenery was nice, but I got the impression that there wasn't much architectural genius involved there.

[Jim Johnson]

Hasn't there been discussions here about conditions at Apache Stronghold, the grass selected for turf there, the various seasons and what the corresponding weather does to the turf throughout the year, etc.?

JJ

[Doug Wright]

Hasn't there been discussions here about conditions at Apache Stronghold, the grass selected for turf there, the various seasons and what the corresponding weather does to the turf throughout the year, etc.?

JJ

Ad nauseum. Apache Stronghold is still very much worth the trip regardless of the conditions IMO.

[Tom Yost]

A coupon in today's paper offering two for $60 at AS good until Jan 31.

As for walking, ask Ryan or Mike Lacey. They walked it when we went there in October.      (Bruce and I wussed out and took a cart...)


Tom

[Andy Troeger]

Can't resist posting a few photos from Seven Canyons in Sedona this past fall. The course is visually spectacular as you'll see in the photos, it seemed like they had a lot of play from outsiders the day I was there so it might be possible to play it somehow, but you'll most spend a fair amount to do it. The views in town in Sedona are equally spectacular as well. Definitely a town worth seeing even if it is pretty expensive.

#6, par four, quite a bit of room out to the left not shown in the photo.


#7, par three, tough hole.


#9, par four.

[Ryan Farrow]

Andy, thanks for the pictures of 7 Canyons, would love to check it out one day, probably more for the scenery. How was the golf course?

Mark, its a very, very, easy walk. With two small hikes between holes 13-14 and 17-18. Maybe you missed a few of the shortcuts on your way back to your cart.  

[Andy Troeger]

Ryan,
Hopefully Brad K. will forgive me if I'm wrong in attributing this to him, but I believe he was the one who called Seven Canyons the IMAX of golf courses or something to that effect. That's a pretty good description in my mind.

Its a good course in terms of architecture, very good because of the views/surrounds. Its actually on a rather small piece of property so the holes are close together generally and other than one odd routing issue between #8 green and #9 tee its very walkable. Its also very narrow with lots of trouble on both sides as is usual for desert/canyon style courses. Its not very long and a par 70 with lots of par fours including a couple trademark Weiskopf drivable ones (that aren't really that accessible but are fun to play in any case).

Its in the top ten courses in Arizona to me, although I'd put it well behind Forest Highlands Canyon and a little behind Saguaro. Its comparable for me to Estancia, The Rim, and Chaparral Pines. The magazines probably have it pretty close with it being #5 or 6 in the state in GD and bottom of the Modern Top 100 in GW.

[Peter Nomm]

Seven Canyons definitely is an experience - I can't say I can compare the course to any other I have played.  Kind of a surreal layout in a surreal location.  You'll even have a blast warming up at the "practice park."

I believe it costs non-members $250 to play.  I set-up my Board President and his wife there this fall, and if I remember correctly I think that was the fee.

[Jay Flemma]

I've always liked Sedona Golf Resort.  The routing is interesting - out and back and asymmetrical

[Jim Johnson]

Thanks for the photos of Seven Canyons, Andy. Your pic of hole #7 is now my new desktop background. Absolutely gorgeous.

Anyone else played The Rim or Chaparral Pines near Payson? Just wondering what either of those would be like.

JJ

[Peter Nomm]

I left the area before the Rim opened but have only heard great things.  Played Chap. Pines after hearing not so good things, but was pleasantly surpised.  First of all, wonderful scenery.  But the thing I liked is that I literally used every club in my bag that day.  I really did!

The hole that gets the most discussion is, if I remember correctly, the 7th.  It is a par 5 that you usually cannot hit driver because of the 90* dogleg right.  It then doglegs 90* left for the third shot.  Definitely not the norm, and was a little confusing the one time I played it.  But overall had a great day and would play it again.

[Evan_Green]

Just curious...what is the golf season in Sedona/Flagstaff?

How about Payson?

[Mike Nuzzo]

JJ,
I don't know what you like in accomodations -- I wouldn't plan a vacation around staying at the Apache Stronghold casino hotel again.
Not that there is anything else to choose from.

The drive from Globe west to Phoenix was very cool.

[Andy Troeger]

Payson and Sedona I think have similar climates. They are open year-round although they might occasionally have to close in the winter due to snow. Summers I think can get pretty hot but not Phoenix like.

Flagstaff is a different animal. The courses told me they closed around the end of October and I think don't reopen until maybe May.

That's the difference though between 5,000 feet elevation and 7,000.

Someone correct me if any of that is wrong, but I think its pretty close from what the locals in all three places told me this year.

[Forrest Richardson]

The drive to Globe from Phoenix is awsome. The Boyce Thompson Arboretum (en route) is very worthwhile for a hike and lunch.

Getting to Sedona, as Tom D. notes, is easier (frankly) if you go back to Phoenix. But, that is hardly the way an Arizonan would do it.

The adventurous drive is NW from Globe on Hwy 88 and Hwy 188; then Hwy 87 to Payson. (The Rim Club is worth it).

From Payson, follow the Gen. Cook Trail (Hwy 260) to Camp Verde; then I-17 North and on to Sedona.

The Gen. Cook Trail is described thusly from a tourism source: "The Crook Trail is named after General George Crook, the Commander of the Military Department of Arizona in 1871, who was in charge of subduing the Apache Indians and confining them to reservations. General Crook, who was known as "Gray Wolf" by the Apaches, rode mules along the trail as they were more sure-footed than horses. The trail was built under Crook's command in 1872 to connect Fort Whipple, the Arizona military headquarters near Prescott and Fort Apache. Supplies and troops were moved to Fort Apache on this trail and for 22 years the trail was used as a route to patrol the northern boundary of the Apache Reservation."

Highway 260 does not exactly follow the trail, as I recall. But it is very cool land to see; forests, river valleys and American Indian country.

A side trip worth it is northeast from Globe on Hwy. 60, through the Salt River Canyon. This is often called the "Mini Grand Canyon". It is out of your way, unless you take your time and explore Arizona, the 48th State.

[Peter Nomm]

Andy - pretty much in track, although it seems that they will have a few more days of golf in Sedona than in Payson (slightly lower in elevation - 4500' -4800').  Payson gets a LOT of the later summer monsoon storms whereas Sedona does not, but in both cases they are definitely much better in the summer than in Phoenix.  In my opinion, Sedona is nearly the perfect climate!

And Flagstaff is a May -October golf season for sure.  They may get some warmer days in the winter but the nights are always frigid.

Forrest - great recommendation on the trip through Payson to Sedona.  That drive coming down on 260 through Strawberry and Pine is awesome - your imagination will see incredible golf holes all the way down the hill!

[Forrest Richardson]

I am not sure the 300 ft, elevation difference makes much difference. I can attest that Sedona gets monsoon activity very often — perhaps not as much as Phoenix. But, perhaps as much as Payson. Regardless, monsoons are nice...except during a backswing.  

[Jim Johnson]

I think a real loose plan right now would be to fly into Phoenix early Saturday evening, overnight in the Fountain Hills area, golf Sunday a.m. at We-Ko-Pa Saguaro and then drive to Globe, overnight Sunday night there (sorry Mike, not sure where else to stay?!), golf Apache Stronghold Monday morning, drive  to Payson and overnight in that area Monday night, and hope to golf The Rim or Chaparral Pines Tuesday morning, then drive into Sedona that afternoon, spend Tuesday and Wednesday nights there and golf there Wednesday afternoon, then drive up to Havasupai Reservation early Thursday a.m. and hike into Havasu Falls for 3 nights, hike out Sunday a.m. and drive back to Phoenix and dinner/overnight there, and fly home Monday a.m.

Any comments/suggestions on this one?

JJ

[Ryan Farrow]

Yes, after you plane lands, head over to Papago Park.

[Matt_Ward]

I have never found the golf in and around the Sedona area that compelling.

Seven Canyons is an absolute gorgeous course but Weiskopf has done far better from the other layouts of his that I have played.

I would recommend people heading over to the Prescott area instead. There's a better range of courses to play there and the prices are very competitive.

With all due respect to Jay F -- Sedona Golf Resort is vastly overrated and simply overdoses on the off-site eye candy which is quite impressive but offers little in terms of on-course design quality IMHO.

Others have already mentioned the sheer impracticality in playing golf in the Flagstaff area during winter months. Playing golf there doesn't start in earnest until May -- sometime mid to late May.

Peter N:

I concur with your comments on CP -- I see it as one of the very best Gary Panks courses you can play. The scenery is as good as neighbor The Rim -- the strategic qualities of the course are also a bit more detailed and intense.