#17 Green @ Birkdale

[Greg Krueger]

It seems that the new 17th green at Birkdale is getting universal negative comments. Looks kind of cool to me on TV, most of the comments are "It is out of character" or "It does not fit with the rest of the course". Any thoughts from people who have played it....

[Brent Hutto]

I don't think IBF dislikes that style of green. I just think he is agreeing with the majority of members, players and visitors who notice that the seventeenth green sticks out like a sore thumb compared to the rest of the course. In fact he was making enthusiastic comments about the contours of the Dell hole at Lahinch which he likened to this new seventeenth (or should I say "this Open's seventeenth") at Birkdale.

When I was there last September the word was that the present seventeenth will be bulldozed as soon as the Open is finished. You can pretty clearly see where the previous green was sited and it would still be more contoured than the norm at Birkdale while being out in the open as befits the course. Taken in isolation it is a cool example of what they used to call a "MacKenzie Green" and it would be fun to play a course with eighteen of them. It just interrupts the flow of the course when you're actually playing it.

As for the "straighter angle" IIRC the visitors tees on that hole are more like the old championship angle. Or maybe I'm getting it confused with fifteen or eighteen, it was raining during that stretch and having only played the course once it's hard to keep it all straight in my mind. Based on the pictures I saw on TV I'd say they made it slightly more risk-reward on the tee shot, at least for a right-hander who can draw the ball, whereas the old tee was all about picking the right line and hitting it as straight and long as possible. If you want to hit driver now, you need to draw it away from the right-hand pot bunkers and an over-draw is dead on the left. Much cooler tee shot.

[Greg Krueger]

Shivas, that was a cool shot that Watson hit, that is what got me thinking about it along with your buddy IBF and his commentary. I suppose it is "out of character", maybe they should redo the other 17

[Brent Hutto]

I think a green like the seventeenth would be more in character with a course that actually plays in or across the dunes rather than in the flattish valleys between. I've not seen any Open courses other than Birkdale and Sandwich but those two are built in very similar dunescapes. Royal Birkdale is considered the "most fair" of the Rota courses (along with Muirfield) in complete contrast to Royal St. Georges which is often lambasted as "unfair" especially on the tee shots.

The general idea of the greens at Birkdale is to have raised front, be well bunkered (with severely gathering bunker surrounds I must add) and quite often having severe, penal rough or even the occasional lateral-hazard ditch not too far from the green. But once the green surface has been attained, there are no 100-foot putts like at the Old Course and there isn't generally a "wrong tier" to find ones ball on. You can make some putts at Birkdale if you can hit the greens and you can pay a steep price for fairly slight misses. It's akin to the fact that you will virtually always end up in the fairway at Birkdale with a well-played shot but a misplayed or misjudged one can end up in the dunes in severe rough and a big number can ensue.

The seventeenth green is not that way. The green does not sit exposed and obvious but is rather tucked between two dunes and riding up a slope on the back. (and BTW there are not that many backstopped or front-to-back sloping greens at Birkdale either). And once on the seventeenth you can be on the wrong tier or even two tierlines away from the hole. That's fun putting for us lovers of Doak or Strantz or MacKenzie greens but it's a different deal than that offered by the rest of the course and it's jarring for no good reason.

[Sean_A]

I have not seen the green nor am I likely to ever see it.  However, I don't buy any arguments based on the green is out of context with the remainder of the course.  If this were truly important greens such as North Berwick's 16th wouldn't exist - hell that green is out of context with the world of golf.  The questions that should be asked are:

1. Does the green fits its surrounds well.  From my perspective, knowing the size of the dunes at Birkdale, it seems absurd to suggest that a green like the 17th (or something in hat vein) doesn't fit. 

2. Does the green make sense in that one can plan for certain outcomes.  This sure seems to be the case from watching the tv.   

Ciao

[Michael Whitaker]

The 17th is VERY different than the other greens at Birkdale.  It is a multi-level green with stairstep slopes leading from one level to the next: lower, middle, upper. I found it very interesting, with the closest thing to "quirk" that one could find within the Birkdale greens. As an amatuer not overly concerned with my scorecard I enjoyed its unique challenge... but, it is VERY different from the other greens in style.

I'm sure after playing 16 holes the professionals find this curveball green on the 17th a bit out of whack, which explains the negative comments. I played Birkdale with a member who is the club's liaison with the R&A for The Open. When we reached the 17th he was almost apologetic for the green. It was obvious from his comments that there had been so much criticism of the green that some change would come at the first available opportunity.

[Brent Hutto]

1. Does the green fits its surrounds well.  From my perspective, knowing the size of the dunes at Birkdale, it seems absurd to suggest that a green like the 17th (or something in hat vein) doesn't fit. 

It depend on what you include in "its surrounds"...

If you mean the area within a 100-yard radius of the center of the green then it is fairly well integrated into the bowl in which it resides.

If you mean Royal Birkdale Golf Club then it sticks out just as surely as would an eight foot high plateau green on a dead-flat course.

P.S. Having read Michael's comment let me add that I too thoroughly enjoyed the 5-10 minutes spent on that green. I was playing with an American visitor who is a member at Crystal Downs and we joked that after seventeen holes he finally found a green he could feel at home on. I actually had a less favorable impression of Royal Birkdale than Mike or most others. For what it is, I think it's an outstanding course. But I've played courses that offer a much more fun and exciting round of golf for my game. A course with eighteen greens like this year's seventeenth would be a big improvement when it comes to my enjoyment but that doesn't mean that I approve of sticking it in as the next-to-last green on a course built to a totally different set of criteria.

I guess in my personal course evaluation criteria (for any course which aspires to "greatness" at least) I come to some conclusion about what a course is trying to be and then judge it in terms of how well it executes that intention. I think I grok what Royal Birkdale is all about and I think the current seventeenth green is a negative in terms of the course being true to itself.

[Phil Benedict]

Just watched Sergio 3-putt the 17th.  I didn't have the sound on but it was definitely a quirky first putt.  Broke sharply left going up the ridge and then made a 90 degree right turn towards the cup when it reached the top of the ridge.  Ended up hole high in relation to where it was hit from but didn' reach the hole after the right turn described above.  I'm not sure if there was an alternative line that could have gotten the first putt closer, but on the line he chose Sergio appeared to do about as well as he could, which was leave himself a six-footer that he missed.

Sergio took forever to hit the first putt.

[tlavin]

I read something on Shackelford's site to the effect that "if 17 were the only green on the course, it would be out of character with the rest of the course."  Funny and true.  It is a bit of an orphan out there.  It reminds me of the 8th green at Beverly here in Chicago, which is 65 yards long with two distinct tiers and a bit of a girdle in the middle.  The green was built in anticipation of professional tournaments in the late 50's or early 60's and it sticks like the proverbial sore thumb.

[Brent Hutto]

Terry,

Sounds like it's shaped a bit like a sore thumb, at that...

[Jay Flemma]

I chalk it up to pros being pros and whining when they see something different.  I liked what I saw.

[Dan Kelly]

On TNT, Watson said he likes the green. Likes its "quirk."

[Tom_Doak]

Remember, Ian Baker-Finch won his Open at Birkdale, so he is likely to think negatively of changes to the course, just as Johnny Miller wouldn't like it if they changed a green at Oakmont.

The thing that bothers me about the changed green is that it looks suspiciously like the architect built it in anticipation of convincing the club to let him change other greens in the same manner.  He was successful with that approach at Lahinch, but I just think that is the wrong approach to take with a club and with an historic course ... even if I don't like Birkdale much.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Tom- They seem to have rebuilt quite a lot of greens at Birkdale over the last 15 years or so, as far as I know Martin Hawtree has done them all. I actually quite like the look of 17, I wonder how high the various steps and shelves are, maybe its too much. I suppose it might look odd as the only 'bumpy' one in the set of 18, the ties in with the surrounds look pretty neat though.

[Tom_Doak]

Adrian:

I had forgotten about the other changes, which came after the greens were roundly criticized for being in poor shape back in '91.  I guess the approach of changing a couple as a demo project has worked here, too.

[Paul_Turner]

Looks like an interesting green but yes I agree it's much more "Lahinch" than Birkdale...the redo of Birkdale's greens in '91 appears to be a big breakthrough for Martin Hawtree after which he has gone on to remodel  many famous courses.

I haven't seen any of his work, apart from the 7th green at Belvoir Park which I played last month...it was desperately disappointing,  heavily mounded and nothing like the other greens.

[Scott Szabo]

Didn't I hear IBF make some comment about liking the old "Birkdale" rather than the current "Quirkdale"?