Local knowledge

[John Kirk]

The Forrest Gump response:

"I like courses that require local knowledge to master, and that's all I have to say about that."

I've been following this thread, covering an important topic we rarely discuss, but have little to say about it.  Course requiring local knowledge is good.

[TEPaul]

Bob:

"Local knowledge" has probably suffered a bum rap due to people who say a golfer should not be put at some disadvantage (particularly to some opponent of fellow competitor) because of something he hasn't experienced or can not immediately make out. Unfortunately the entire aspect of public golf and public courses has fostered this opinion as well.

If some golfer hits what he thinks is the required shot for him and gets screwed because he has not experienced the situation before or intuitively figured it out before striking the ball just let him come back again hopefully having learned from his experience on that course or on that hole.

If it becomes too much otherwise golf is really going to become something too much like a tennis court and I don't think any golfer really wants to see that.

[Tom_Doak]

So far everyone has talked about local knowledge on where to hit the tee shot ... or on banking an approach shot ... but one of my favorite forms of local knowledge is on little shots around the greens.  The best part of that stuff is that it's always right in front of you, but most people just aren't clever enough to find it until they see somebody else do it.

Years ago I was playing at Indianwood in Detroit.  It's a cool course from tee to green, but nearly all the greens are the same --artificial plateau greens tilted in toward the center from both sides, and then draining out the front.  A couple of times, I short-sided myself in a bunker and thought it was an impossible shot and somewhat unfair.  But then I realized you could blast out high to the far side of the green and spin the ball back into the center to get close to the hole, and my estimation of the style went up quite a bit.

I build things like that on my courses all the time ... it's one of the reasons I like undulations in and around the greens.  But most people just don't see it.

[Jon Wiggett]

I grew up playing a course, Dewsbury & District GC, which had some holes on arable land, some cut through woodland, some on moor/heathland and some on old mining slag. Some greens were from 1891, some from the 1930's some from the 1970's Allis rebuild and some from later on. Every green was different and this meant local knowledge was important.

[Bill_McBride]

So far everyone has talked about local knowledge on where to hit the tee shot ... or on banking an approach shot ... but one of my favorite forms of local knowledge is on little shots around the greens.  The best part of that stuff is that it's always right in front of you, but most people just aren't clever enough to find it until they see somebody else do it.

Years ago I was playing at Indianwood in Detroit.  It's a cool course from tee to green, but nearly all the greens are the same --artificial plateau greens tilted in toward the center from both sides, and then draining out the front.  A couple of times, I short-sided myself in a bunker and thought it was an impossible shot and somewhat unfair.  But then I realized you could blast out high to the far side of the green and spin the ball back into the center to get close to the hole, and my estimation of the style went up quite a bit.

I build things like that on my courses all the time ... it's one of the reasons I like undulations in and around the greens.  But most people just don't see it.

It's always fun to recognize that on a course and have an opportunity to try it.  I remember fooling around on the 10th green at Yale, putting in a big semicircle from the back to front of the green.  Baxter Spann did some great stuff in that vein at Black Mesa, where you can spin bunker shots off adjacent banks and get close.  There are some wild side slopes at Tobacco Road where you can play some fun shots.  The right side of #8 at Pacific Dunes certainly qualifies when the pin is front right!

[Lloyd_Cole]

I build things like that on my courses all the time ... it's one of the reasons I like undulations in and around the greens.  But most people just don't see it.

Tom

I wouldn't be so sure of 'most people'. Surely the most replayed shot of recent years was Tiger's chip in at 16 at Augusta, Davis Love's effort a few years ago was high rotation, too... Do most folk really leave these illustrations in their living rooms?

I have a memory like a sieve but I'll never forget the shot I played from one of the greenside banks at Tobacco Road's Dell hole - the only way to get close to the pin was to play across the green, up the opposite bank and then let gravity bring the ball back to the green. That is fun golf.

[Mike Golden]

Every golf course I have ever played requires local knowledge to consistently play to your 'ability'.  Bethpage Black certainly falls into that category even if it seems like it is all in front of you, there are many places on the golf course that reveal themselves after you have played it often.

[Bill_McBride]

I build things like that on my courses all the time ... it's one of the reasons I like undulations in and around the greens.  But most people just don't see it.

Tom

I wouldn't be so sure of 'most people'. Surely the most replayed shot of recent years was Tiger's chip in at 16 at Augusta, Davis Love's effort a few years ago was high rotation, too... Do most folk really leave these illustrations in their living rooms?

I have a memory like a sieve but I'll never forget the shot I played from one of the greenside banks at Tobacco Road's Dell hole - the only way to get close to the pin was to play across the green, up the opposite bank and then let gravity bring the ball back to the green. That is fun golf.

Lloyd, I played that shot in the Dixie Cup at Tobacco Road - but think it was on #11 or #12.  Huge steep bank on the left side of the green, I was in the back and putted up to the top, around a couple of our GCA guys who were standing there, amused as the ball passed by behind them, and then fed down to the hole!  Fun stuff......

[wsmorrison]

Tom Doak mentioned "Frankly, anytime somebody mentions a par-3, I tune out, because there isn't much local knowledge to most short holes; everyone just tries to hit it close to the hole."

I got to thinking about par 3s that do require local knowledge.  There are a couple of types.  One is the kind of green setting where it is difficult to determine where the pin is.  This sort of par 3 can have pin positions that are even hard for seasoned veterans to determine.   Such par 3s include the 3rd at Merion East, the 15th at Philadelphia Country and the 8th at Lancaster CC.  Some par 3 greens and/or green side bunkers have diagonals where the distance differentials are hard to make out and club selection gets tricky, especially for newcomers or golfers that have only seen pins in certain positions.  The 5th at Indian Creek, the 14th at Kittansett and the 7th at Shinnecock Hills are examples of this.  A third type is where the hole is place in a decidedly downhill setting.  The way our perception works is that if the slope is softened slightly, the green still slopes front to back but it appears quite the opposite.  This is true standing on the tee but also, hard to believe but true, standing on the green as well.  Such outstanding misperceptions exist on the 4th at Cascades and the 3rd at Rolling Green.  Newcomers have a huge disadvantage as their putts front to back roll well past the hole and the return putts are almost invariably well short as the eye just cannot perceive the correct slope.  The golfer walks off the green really scratching his/her head.  At Rolling Green, the top lines of the flanking bunkers slope back to front exacerbating the misperception that the green slopes back to front.  Even long time members have to concentrate on the speed and line of the putts.  Those without local knowledge are at a supreme disadvantage.

[Mark_F]

Wayne,

WHY do the par threes in the first group you mention have pin positions that are difficult to discern?

Green contours? Dead ground/False fronts? Bunkers or ridges hiding (part of) the surface? Are they uphill?

Are they generally holes which have a number of pin positions that are hard to pick out, or just the one?

My home course has a number of holes where it is difficult to discern pin positions, generally because of both green contours and being slightly uphill.

Just as a general aside, do many of you find holes that particularly require local knowledge to be the half-par holes?

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

I think most of the holes in the first instance, that is difficulty in discerning pin positions, are uphill.  However, you nailed other instances with green contours, top lines of bunkers (from evolutionary sand splash for instance), ridges and false fronts.  I think the best holes of this sort have a variety of pin locations that are hard to figure.  Of course these features work well with approach shots on par 4 and par 5 holes.

[Mark_F]

Wayne,

Thanks.  We generally only have a small handful of uphill par threes here in Melbourne, which are pretty good, but strangely enough, the best couple -KH 15, RMW 7 - aren't really that deceptive in the manner you describe, which is interesting.