[Adam Clayman]

A couple immediately come to mind;

Pacific Grove's 13th


 Does the steepness preclude a skillfull recovery?

Personally, I think this t mound offers creative shotmaking opportunities on approach, but, also can add a certain variety of look not seen elsewhere on the course.

[Bill Hagel]

The one and only time I played Merion (yes I am whining)
I pulled my approach left of the mound and made what I thought was a skillful flop shot that ran just past the flagstick (in about the same position as this picture - maybe a bit further left and back) and nearly off the green.  .  I don't know how I could have it a better recovery than I did except risk landing on the mound itself.

[Adam Clayman]

Sully, Is the pin ever on the left? Back left? If so, and the turf is firm enough, being good enough isn't the issue. It's allowing a creative shotmaker to try to use the mound in any fashion they seem reasonable. Maybe even for fun?

[Jim Franklin]

Sully -

The last time I played #14, I hit a flier out of the left rough to the back fringe. The pin was front middle and I made (what I consider) a great two putt par. Does that count as through the green in two?

[wsmorrison]

Jim,

Very few players go through the green in two shots.  It is a long uphill hole that is very difficult to determine the pin location.  I don't think anyone should easily recover from the left side of the mound, but because it is a feature not found anywhere else and it is such a difficult recovery, that it becomes controversial.  When the plus handicapper cannot utilize his skill to get close to the pin and his/her shots wind up similarly to the hack's shots, I think the feature may be considered over done.  Of course it can be a fun shot, and I suppose if you know you cannot be there, the punishment fits the crime.  I guess there's nothing wrong with that.  Yet the average player would rather avoid the bunker right so in general it gets very little play.  I wouldn't mind seeing the balance between the two sides a bit more in equilibrium.  

[JSlonis]

I'm really not sure which greenside feature I prefer.  If I had to pick, I'd probably say the bunker.

The absolute single feature I'd like to see return to this hole is having the fairway width increased and move back left toward the road.  With the narrowing and awkward shift of the fairway away from the road, the OB risk is greatly lessened, and with the shorter more direct route now taken away, there is less to think about on the tee shot.  

[Adam Clayman]

Original post altered.

And, Tom Paul has a good sense.

[JSlonis]

Jamie,

Would you include any other hazard type features while widening the fairway? If not, there sure wouldn't be much of a decision then either.

I agree in a sense...

With the present location of the right fairway bunkers, I think having the fairway extended toward the road would leave too wide of a fairway.  Ideally, if the present configuration of the bunkers could move to the left a bit, along with the fairway, it would present a proper challenge and offer a couple of choices from the tee.  Basically, I think that anything that would bring back the hazard that the road becomes by having fairway closer to it would be a plus.  As it is currently configured, it takes a pretty wild tee shot to miss this fairway far enough left to get to the OB.

[TEPaul]

While I certainly recognize the grass mound on Merion's #14 has been very controversial with some (inluding some very good players at Merion) I just feel it has improved the hole strategically in some pretty subtle but massively impactful ways.

There is no question at all that the grass mound has massively increased the concern and effectiveness of those right greenside bunkers simply because the thinking golfer is so much more concerned now what will happen if he errs left.

The chances of a ball getting out on that road and out of bounds has increased by a factor of at least five compared to the way the hole used to be with the bunker in the place of that mound and rough to the left of the old bunker.

If one has not hit a pretty good drive on that hole the decision to attempt to come up just short of that green or no more than on the front (and short of that mound) is an option that just occurs to way more golfers than it used to with the bunker there to catch a ball left and particularly the rough left of that to catch and slow down a ball before it reaches the road that is not far away at all.

[JESII]

Tom,

Have you witnessed this change of approach in some way?

It's interesting to me that you think the current arrangement will result in more balls right of the green while Wayne thinks the opposite...

[TEPaul]

Furthermore, and for many of the reasons given above I've always been a huge advocate of expanding the fairway on this hole all the way to the road for the tee shot the way it apparently once was.

If this were done it would probably serve to tempt golfers to drive it closer to that road simply to get into a less dangerous angle on the approach shot with that mound and short grass area to the left of the green.

I realize if this were done the fairway would be perhaps 75 or so yards wide but so what, this would be creating a ton of interconnecting options and strategies throughout the WHOLE hole---eg from tee right into the green!

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Have you witnessed this change of approach in some way?
It's interesting to me that you think the current arrangement will result in more balls right of the green while Wayne thinks the opposite..."

Sully:

I think you must have misunderstood either Wayne or me somehow. I believe he thinks exactly the same thing I do about it and not the opposite.

[JESII]

... Yet the average player would rather avoid the bunker right so in general it gets very little play.  I wouldn't mind seeing the balance between the two sides a bit more in equilibrium.  

There is no question at all that the grass mound has massively increased the concern and effectiveness of those right greenside bunkers simply because the thinking golfer is so much more concerned now what will happen if he errs left.

Tom,

You seem to imply that the bunker gets more play now due to the OB (by "the thinking golfer"), am I misinterpreting your words? It would not be the first time...

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
You seem to imply that the bunker gets more play now due to the OB (by "the thinking golfer"), am I misinterpreting your words?"

Sully:

I don't exactly keep data on that kind of thing but I would certainly assume so. Almost every Merion golfer I've spoken to about the new arrangement on this hole says the fact that the left side is so much more dangerous in that it's so much easier for a ball to get out on the road compared to the way  the hole used to be with the bunker there and the rough left of it just makes them tend to try to avoid the left and this makes them err right more.

When I first saw this new arrangement there was little doubt in my mind this is precisely what would happen.

For that reason I think there's a much greater left/right risk balance or equilibrium on this hole strategically than there used to be.

I think this is what Wayne was saying.

[wsmorrison]

Actually, that's not quite what I meant, Tom.  I don't see the mound kicking balls to the left towards the road.  Usually, shots are short on that hole or don't have enough umph to kick left enough to threaten OB.  Frankly, I don't see the angle of the slope as being conducive to kicking balls OB in any case.  

I tend to see mid to high handicap golfers steer clear of the right side even if they don't know the bunker is there to the right (it is all but hidden from typical landing areas).  The 15th tee, the tree to the left of the 16th green and the players on the 16th green tend to make average players play off to the left.  Most higher handicap players familiar with the hole would rather take their chances with the mound versus the sand on the right.  However, for plus or low handicap players, I think you're right that the difficult recoveries from the left side brings the right side more into play.  Interesting that the equilibrium differs for different classes of players.

[TEPaul]

"Actually, that's not what I meant, Tom.  I don't see the mound kicking balls to the left towards the road.  Usually, shots are short on that hole or don't have enough umph to kick left enough to threaten OB.  Frankly, I don't see the angle of the slope as being conducive to kicking balls OB in any case."

Wayne:

Sorry, I guess I completely misunderstood what you were saying about the hole. Sully picked up on the difference between you and me.

Maybe you don't see how easy it is for a ball to get on that road now compared to the way the hole used to be because you don't remember the way the hole used to be and used to play as well as I do. Just ask any of those old players around there if it's easier to get a ball out on the road now compared the way it used to be with a bunker there and rough to the left of it.

But it's also true that it used to be easier to get a ball out of that bunker on the left to anywhere on the green than it is now trying to negotiate that grass mound from the other side.

Just ask Bill Greenwood sometime about the differences. I guarantee you he will mention a concept he calls "short grass as a hazard". He might even add it's a concept he picked up from reading something Tom Doak wrote.  

[wsmorrison]

I don't know the older version of the hole nearly as well as you do, Tom.  I am sure it is easier to get OB without the bunker than with it   But that is relatively speaking.  As it is now, I have never seen anything close to OB on the hole...yet.  I don't think many of the approach angles deflect off the mound towards the street in a way that results in more than a handful of OB penalties per year.  That may have a lot to do with the length of the hole and the uphill nature.  Few people take enough club to do what you suggest.  However, the better players probably do play away from the mound and bring the right bunker into play.

[JESII]

Tell me about the back bunker...is it Flynn? Is it necessary?

[wsmorrison]

It was a mound off the green through 1922 or 1923.  A bunker was put in for the 1924 Amateur.  It stayed that way through 1930.  The green was moved and enlarged up to the bunker.  It was probably more shallow than it is today.  Is it necessary?  It gets little play and is easier to recover from than the fescue and Scotch Broom covered mound.  I think it looks good and I'd rather see a bunker there with the mound than just the mound.  It would be really interesting to see what the green looks like without the bunker and mound.  There would be no depth perception at all.  I'll try and Photoshop it out of there, though I'm not very good with it.

[Bart Bradley]

This is an example of another hole on one of my home courses..It is the seventeenth hole at the Virginian.  A long dogleg right par 4.  You can definitely use the large mound left of the green to kick onto the putting surface (have done it intentionally and not so much )  The picture is taken from the right of the green looking over at the left mound.  The picture is not great and I will try to take some better photos to post of the course in the Spring ...but I thought I'd share another example of where a left-sided mound can aid your approach...If  your ball hangs up on the hill and the pin is on the left you are dead.  The green has two tiers a higher one to left and a lower one to the right.  If you are in the right rough off the tee you almost cannot hold the right half of the green without using the bank shot off the left mound.  If you are in the left rough you can use the countour of the green and the slope of the ridge in the center to get your ball to release to a right pin.
 





Great post.

Bart

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