[John Kavanaugh]

I do not know of a town in Southern Illinois that does not have a semi-private club within 10 miles that is inexpensive enough for any single income school teacher and his family to be a member.  In my home town of Lawrenceville the Bendelow nine hole course is $480/year with 200 members and a complete maintenance budget less than $100,000 including salaries, chemicals and equipment purchase and repair.  How good are the courses...just good enough.  

[Tom_Doak]

John:

Have ANY of those courses you described been built in the last ten years?  Do you think they could be built today and not go in the tank at those prices?

Bill B:

I think your model is partly right ... the key being to NOT BUILD a big clubhouse.  But if it's entirely dependent on building a course which gets "national acclaim" then it is not really a business model everyone can follow.

[kconway]

Tom,

What is thinking behind the Renaissance Club?

How do you view Archerfield?

Kelly

[Garland Bayley]

I like the Burger King model. Find a location next to a booming McDonalds and build away.

Or, you could call it the Bandon Crossings model with Bandon Resort being the McDonalds. The amusing thing of course is that Bandon Resort is building a MacDonald.

[John Kavanaugh]

John:

Have ANY of those courses you described been built in the last ten years?  Do you think they could be built today and not go in the tank at those prices?

Bill B:

I think your model is partly right ... the key being to NOT BUILD a big clubhouse.  But if it's entirely dependent on building a course which gets "national acclaim" then it is not really a business model everyone can follow.

Tom,

Several of the courses have added an extra 9 holes in the last 10 years because they felt they needed 18 and because the land adjacent was basically free.  Each addition has been a failure in my opinion.

I think the people of Southern Illinois are very close in culture to the golfers of the UK.  We really just need a place to play with cheap drinks.  City folk just need so much more pampering that they end up paying for stuff they don't even know they have.  There is no reason around these parts to pay a super more than a school teacher because teachers, not doctors, are the primary members.  Cost are strangely low when compared to what you see elsewhere in the country.

[Tom_Doak]

Garland:

There are a lot of broke golf courses in northern Michigan which built on the Burger King model.  Of course, none of them were next to a tremendously successful McDonald's.

[paul cowley]

I'm working on a couple of projects that combine a very eco friendly 'green' design that is also a component of a larger and sympathetic lifestyle community....that I am also designing.

I think the concept is a sound one.

[Bill Brightly]

Bill B:

I think your model is partly right ... the key being to NOT BUILD a big clubhouse.  But if it's entirely dependent on building a course which gets "national acclaim" then it is not really a business model everyone can follow.

Perhaps "national acclaim" is a bad choice of words. I mean a course that really grabs the attention of the golfing community, coupled with a "golf only" offering at a reasonable cost.

I am most familiar with Northern New Jersey, where only a handful of clubs have waiting lists now (Old Dead Guy courses), there is great competition at the top end (Trump National, Bayonne, Liberty National, Hudson National) and a bunch of private clubs really struggling.

I just have to believe that if they went "golf only" and priced it right, they could do very well. However, the struggling clubs I can think of are mediocre courses.

[Steve Lapper]

Bill & Tom:

   I concur with you about the idea of "reconstructing" some of the older, struggling clubs, however, the economic practicality of such a deal is most likely too costly and thus impossibly prohibitive. Most of these older clubs sit on valuable land (anywhere close to a major MSA, i.e Northern or Central NJ) and are consequently immensely valuable for either residential or commercial development, and if not, then prime candidates for preservation. Even if they are none of the above, the equity basis of those club memberships would demand a premium price of any new developer and the subsequent reconstruction costs would have to be borne by another capital source. All of this conspires to keep this from happening. I'm peripherally involved with such a deal  in Rockland County, NY and the #'s (even with deep pockets) probably don't fly anytime soon.

Pity though, because the idea makes good sense.

[Ulrich Mayring]

What could interest a successful golf architect to work for little money on an average site designing a course that will be very good value, but never world-class?

Ambition, vision, challenge etc. are all fine, but the bottom-line is a high-profile architect needs to support the people working for him. The only way I can really see is that he develops a number of template designs - it has been shown that this does not necessarily stifle greatness. Then he builds not one, but 100 of these low-profile, good value courses and secures a portion of the profits for his operation.

It might be less interesting than designing the next "Best new Private" and it does involve heavy commitment for an extended period of time. But the biggest profit and the most sustainable business is always in providing good value to large numbers.

Ulrich

[Mike Sweeney]

But, how many other business models out there really make sense anymore?

I don't really know, but I would think a course in China or India has a chance to thrive.

My guess is Ballyneal (which I have never seen) will make it. There is a long list of remote clubs that almost or did go bankrupt including Fishers, National, Shinnecock, Augusta......Has a great course ever been plowed under for anything other than a better business model as was the case at Lido and others?

[RJ_Daley]

Could there be an inverse sort of relationship with souring economy, and production of good public courses?

There were several public courses built by architects who were out of private client work, and took up assignments for the WPA during the depression.  

Could the next best business model not be a highly profitable motive driven private developer model, where instead, communities find usable land and promote community projects like either public works or a collaboration of a private concessionaire to take a long term lease on a course funded by local or state governments?  Isn't the RTJ trail something like that?  

I don't think the long term prospects of private, costly, and exclusive golf development is a lively proposition.  I think that if the game grows, it will grow in the public recreational golfer sector.  The entire industry, including ball and impliment makers would need to dial costs down, make golf more affordable and thus grow the market, or watch it die of old age and rising costs beyond a market that will continue to support it.  

All this is merely a hip shot and conjecture, of course...  

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Peak season for those not staying at the resort, The Ocean Course green fee is $350.  It can be as low as $208 for those staying at the resort at certain times and seasons...

[Jeff_Brauer]

Could there be an inverse sort of relationship with souring economy, and production of good public courses?

There were several public courses built by architects who were out of private client work, and took up assignments for the WPA during the depression.  

I think that happens, as Fazio does courses like the El Paso deal near their airport.

For that matter, as all designers get fewer projects, we spend more time on them and make them better, regardless of public or private, etc.

I admit to thinking "This may be the last hole I ever design" from time to time!  May as well make it my best, just in case.

[tlavin]

Based on the thrust of the foregoing posts, it wouldn't seem advisable for a young person to consider golf course architecture as a vocation.

[Jason Topp]

In my neighborhood, there is recently built executive course with a good practice facility.  It is teeming with people.  Beginners play the course.  More serious golfers use it as a convienent place to practice.  

The key to the success of this place is that there is a lot of population close by and the emphasis on practice opportunities.  

People will drive a 1/2 hour to play golf but not to practice.  

[Rich Goodale]

Interesting, Jason

A course I played 4 years ago near Bordeaux was a very challenging and well designed 3,500 yard 9-holer that had an equally well designed par-3 course and extensive practice facilities.  All were jampacked when I played there, even though it was in the middle of the hottest summer in history in Europe.

Developers and architects really need to start thinking outside of the 7,000+, 72, out and back, posh clubhouse box they have allowed themselves to get into.

rich

[Matthew Hunt]

Interesting, Jason

A course I played 4 years ago near Bordeaux was a very challenging and well designed 3,500 yard 9-holer that had an equally well designed par-3 course and extensive practice facilities.  All were jampacked when I played there, even though it was in the middle of the hottest summer in history in Europe.

Developers and architects really need to start thinking outside of the 7,000+, 72, out and back, posh clubhouse box they have allowed themselves to get into.

rich

Outside the Tourist areas 9-holers in France are the status quo. They believe in these areas Good Golfer=Good Architect.

[Rich Goodale]

Matthew

This was in the middle of a tourist area, surrounded by 18-holers.  In fact, in 15+ trips to France it was the only 9-holer I have ever seen.  I must not be attuned to the hidden gems de la France...

Have a Merry one

[Matthew Hunt]

My Knowledge is via two sources.

1. A RTE TV program

2. Holiday's to France. Touristy areas like Cannes etc. have mainly 18 holers. This year we spent most of our trip in a non-Tourist area near Cannes. There were 6 or 7 9-holers and 2 18-holers. One of there looked to be the worst golf-course I have ever seen, the other one we discovered in person when after taking a wrong turn on the way back from the shops and nearly got hit by a golf ball. There is 150y par 3 that crossed abusy main road. I had aranged to play it but my brother decided that a trip in an Ambluance would be better

[cary lichtenstein]

Tom:

I would think the US business models are worn out for the time being. I can't see many gated communities in the planning stages now, certainly not in the next 3 years as the over supply of housing has to be absorbed.

The private side is saturated as well, as is the resort.

That only leaves the public where you can find cheap land near polulated areas.

I would think that Overseas is really where all the action will be in the next 5 to 10 years, with developing countries and underdeveloped areas like the Carribean and Mexico, although I think there is alot going on there now.

I guess you follow the money.

It will be interesting to see how Old McDonald does, which I think will probably be terrific, but I wonder is the actual number of rounds will increase 25% as the 4th course, or only 10% as play falls off on the other courses. It is the old story of how many candy bars can one eat before one is full.

[Adrian_Stiff]

AS a business 9 hole golf courses are pretty much disaster. It is almost impossible to make money out of them since your income is 50% of an 18 holer (based on number of rounds) whilst your run costs are in excess of 50% of an 18 holer, simple things like you cant buy half a tractor, half a car park, hire half a pro loosely set the tone. In construction terms an irrigation system cost is probably something like 65-70% for the first nine holes (in the UK). They should only be considered as a reasonable business if they are linked with something else like a hotel or driving range where some of the run cost can be absorbed. As an add on to an existing 18, the reverse is true.
Golf courses are quite marginal business's and very few in the UK make profits in excess of $400,000 pa.. put that on a price earnings of say 12 and a say $5M with construction, land and clubhouse costs plus other bits it does not leave much for an architects feast.
As mentioned, small functional clubhouses are generally better unless the location is very near chimmney pots. Big clubhouses generally lose.

[Bruce Katona]

One way we tried to look at expanding the portfolio is to acquire an existing lousy golf course in a decent geographic location on a decent sized piece of property with the permits in place to irrigate and operate (liquer license) and blow the existing couse up as a complete remodel.....with the permits in place and proposing a complete  remodel, you generally don't have to wait three years to go thru the permitting process and spend considerable dollars on carry costs and consultants.

Haven't found the correct opportunity yet, but continue to look.

[Adrian_Stiff]

One way we tried to look at expanding the portfolio is to acquire an existing lousy golf course in a decent geographic location on a decent sized piece of property with the permits in place to irrigate and operate (liquer license) and blow the existing couse up as a complete remodel.....with the permits in place and proposing a complete  remodel, you generally don't have to wait three years to go thru the permitting process and spend considerable dollars on carry costs and consultants.

Haven't found the correct opportunity yet, but continue to look.

Keep looking Bruce the plan makes sense, I like the idea that you dont need to draw on NEW golfers and whilst you may need to close for a year or so, there will be a natural shift back when the project reopens.

[PCCraig]

I still strongly believe that the next wave of golf developments will be with domestic capital built on international land. Think of all of the untaped land all over the world. Why not a 10 course complex in South America? Or Africa?

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