[John Kavanaugh]

I am now convinced after years of reading the experts that Bell did a major muck job on the potential that Torrey held.  I am curious where else did he fail to "reach potential"?  That being said and trying to be in fair balance, was he any worse than Bendelow in Illinois?  Who is the bigger muckraker..Bell or Bendelow?  Which state suffered more by a lack of great golden age designers?

[Jeff_Brauer]

John,

What great sites did Bendelow have?

As to Torrey Pines, that course and a few other ocean front courses from that era raise questions for me.

Basically, in that era, it seems designers stuck to their "normal" designs even when on spectacular sites rather than try to emulate Scotland.  Of course, the same might be said of MacKenzie, but he had a pretty good style to start with at CP.

So, the question is, does a designer afforded a spectacular site dance with what brung 'em or do they try a different (for them) style and what would yield the best results?  

[John Kavanaugh]

If you look at the "Illinois Barranca", ditch, at LCCC you can see that Bendelow did not use its full potential on the juction of two and three.  I would think this may be a common mistake given his short time on each site and lack of construction review.   I am also not a huge fan of the routing of QCCC where Bendelow really mucked up the current first two holes.  I rarely play this course where I am a member because of this start.  I do have a feeling that they were not the original starting holes as that may have been changed when Killian came in and added another nine.

LCCC...Lawrence County Country Club, Originally Cross Roads CC.
QCCC...Quail Creek Country Club, Originally Robinson CC.

[John Kavanaugh]

I have never played any of the courses at Medinah.  Did Bendelow make the best use of the natural features there or does it once again look mailed in?

[Jeff Doerr]

John,

I've played a lot of Bell Jr. and Sr. courses. Here are some thoughts on JR:

*They feel rushed, like they were drawn up quickly and handed off to a local construction crew.

*Most felt like recreation centers, rather than artistic creations for sport.

*They felt similar/generic in form. Bunker left off the tee usually means bunker right at the green.

In summary, most seem to be great candidates for a remodel or redesign. For the most part they are on a decent piece of property with a good population base near the course.

Here my list of Bell courses played...
William F. Bell
Courses Built
•   Alhambra Municipal Golf Course - Public in Alhambra
•   Babe Didrikson Zaharias at Industry Hills Sheraton Resort - Resort in City of Industry
•   Buenaventura Golf Course - Public in Ventura
•   Diamond Bar Golf Course - Public in Diamond Bar
•   Dwight D. Eisenhower at Industry Hills Sheraton Resort - Resort in City of Industry
•   Eaton Canyon Golf Course - Public in Pasadena
•   Forest Hills Golf Course - Semi-Private in Cornelius
•   Heartwell Golf Course - Public in Long Beach
•   Hesperia Golf & Country Club - Semi-Private in Hesperia
•   Kah-Nee-Ta Resort - Resort in Warm Springs
•   Kern River Golf Course - Public in Bakersfield
•   Kern Valley Golf Course - Semi-Private in Kernville
•   Lake/Valley at Los Coyotes Country Club - Private in Buena Park
•   lIIahe Hills Country Club - Private in Salem
•   Los Verdes Golf Course - Public in Rancho Palos Verdes
•   Marina at San Leandro Golf Club - Public in San Leandro
•   Palo Alto Municipal Golf Course - Public in Palo Alto
•   Rancho Duarte Golf Club - Public in Duarte
•   Recreation Park American Golf Club - Public in Long Beach
•   Recreation Park South - Public in Long Beach
•   San Luis Rey Downs Golf & Country Club - Resort in Bonsall
•   Skylinks Golf Course - Public in Long Beach
•   South Hills Country Club - Private in West Covina
•   The South - Jack Clark at Chuck Corica Golf Complex - Public in Alameda
•   Tony Lema at San Leandro Golf Club - Public in San Leandro
•   Valley/Vista at Los Coyotes Country Club - Private in Buena Park

[Jeff_Brauer]

I have never played any of the courses at Medinah.  Did Bendelow make the best use of the natural features there or does it once again look mailed in?

John,

Tim Cronin goes over all of this in Spirit of Medinah, but No. 3 has the best features and I think the holes fit okay. We could question why he crossed Lake Kadijah with the par 3's as straight as they are, rather than at varying angles, but I think he was trying to save bridge costs.  His first layout was more for housing, but after members sued, he redesigned it to use the property fully for golf.  The other two courses are a bit flatter but flow okay.  The No. 1 course is long and skinny and the No. 2 course has an inside outside loop arrangement.

The driving range is well away from the clubhouse.

[David Stamm]

I don't know enough about Bendelow to make a educated observation. However, I've seen ALOT of Bell jr. There is no doubt that he had some GREAT sites and a better architect probably could've gotten more from them. Besides TP, Sandpiper and Los Verdes are another pair of seaside sites that could've been better. Having said that, Bell, jr had alot of restrcitions when working with the TP site. He was instructed to stay away from the canyons for safety reasons so the oppurtunity to use those features there were taken away. I'm not sure if he had the chance to use them it would've been that much better that what we see today, but one would have to think that it would've somewhat more interesting.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Jeff,

For your 411:

WPB=William Park "Billy" Bell "Sr."
WFB=William Francis "Billy" Bell "Jr."
WPBWFB=Both father & son between 1947 to 1952 (He started working for him during and after he was at USC.)
William Johnson=Associate, former superintendent and park supervisor
Willie Watson=Do I need to explain who Willie Watson is?

•   Alhambra Municipal Golf Course - Public in Alhambra WFB
•   Babe Didrikson Zaharias at Industry Hills Sheraton Resort -WFB Resort in City of Industry
•   Buenaventura Golf Course - Public in Ventura WPB then WPBWFB
•   Diamond Bar Golf Course - Public in Diamond Bar WFB
•   Dwight D. Eisenhower at Industry Hills Sheraton Resort - Resort in City of Industry WFB
•   Eaton Canyon Golf Course - Public in Pasadena WFB
•   Forest Hills Golf Course - Semi-Private in Cornelius WPBWFB
•   Heartwell Golf Course - Public in Long Beach WILLIAM JOHNSON--a Bell associate.
•   Hesperia Golf & Country Club - Semi-Private in Hesperia WFB
•   Kah-Nee-Ta Resort - Resort in Warm Springs WFB
•   Kern River Golf Course - Public in Bakersfield WPB then WPBWFB
•   Kern Valley Golf Course - Semi-Private in Kernville WFB
•   Lake/Valley at Los Coyotes Country Club - Private in Buena Park WFB
•   lIIahe Hills Country Club - Private in Salem  WFB
•   Los Verdes Golf Course - Public in Rancho Palos Verdes WFB
•   Marina at San Leandro Golf Club - Public in San Leandro WFB
•   Palo Alto Municipal Golf Course - Public in Palo Alto WFB
•   Rancho Duarte Golf Club - Public in Duarte William Johnson and WFB
•   Recreation Park American Golf Club (Big Rec) - Public in Long Beach WILLIE WATSON then WPB
•   Recreation Park South (Little Rec) - Public in Long Beach WPB
•   San Luis Rey Downs Golf & Country Club - Resort in Bonsall WFB
•   Skylinks Golf Course - Public in Long Beach WFB
•   South Hills Country Club - Private in West Covina WFB
•   The South - Jack Clark at Chuck Corica Golf Complex - Public in Alameda WFB
•   Tony Lema at San Leandro Golf Club - Public in San Leandro WFB
•   Valley/Vista at Los Coyotes Country Club - Private in Buena Park WFB

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Who screwed up more great sites?

John Kavanaugh.....(Get it?)

[John Kavanaugh]

Who screwed up more great sites?

John Kavanaugh.....(Get it?)

You been talking to Geoff?

[Forrest Richardson]

I guess this question requires us to determine the exact point at which a golf architect completes the work — indeed, it requires us to decide whether the routing, the shaping or the details — or all of these — make up the most essential part of a course.

For Bell (Wm. F. Bell), I have found that a majority of his courses are very well routed, all-be-it that many are a product of the 60s and 70s and therefore terribly hampered by residential lots. Aside from that, the routings — the anatomy — remains very good.

When we go to re-plan, re-work, remodel or re-build these (W. F. Bell) courses, we inherit a solid routing (mostly) and typically interesting sites. I think Torrey qualifies nicely in this regard — here you have a great site, solid routing and not a whole lot to do if one were to make the place truly extraordinary. That is a far cry from many courses and sites and routings built during the same period.

I have far less Bendelow experience, although I am getting an opportunity to visit more of his courses or the bones from his old courses.

Again — I think the key here is to work past (previous!) the details and current state of these courses — to look at how the courses set into the land and how the routing interacts with the site. The details and shaping are rather easily reconfigured and replaced compared to the lay-out.

[Jeff Doerr]

Forrest,

Olivas was a WFB, correct?  How much did you change the routing there (although it is a pretty flat site)?

What needed to be changed?

Jeff

[Forrest Richardson]

Olivas Park was Wm. F. Bell, but significantly altered by a flood and re-routing by a local golf pro. We blew-up and rerouted the entire course. Nothing is left at all of the previous work, save a few high points and some water ponds.

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