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Garland Bayley

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Best New Golf Course List Intersection
« on: December 12, 2007, 05:09:27 PM »
Three courses made the intersection of the best new from Golf Digest, Golf, and Golf Travel & Leisure.  Each appeared in two of the lists.

Garnering two first places
Chambers Bay
Garnering one first place
Colorado GC
Garnering no first places
Leopard's Chase

From that I can clearly conclude that Chambers Bay is the far and away best new course of 2007 if not of the decade.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2007, 08:47:41 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike Mosely

Re:Best New Intersection
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2007, 05:19:15 PM »
Yes!  Congrats Chambers Bay...nice to see Washington state get its due.  Lord knows the Seahawks can't learn to swallow, at least we can claim "Washington golf beats _____ golf" for real...not just football metaphor.

What does everyone know about this "Leopards Chase?"  I never heard of this one?  Anyone play it?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2007, 05:21:34 PM by Mike Mosely »

Jay Cox

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Re:Best New Intersection
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2007, 06:17:46 PM »
Dang!  I thought this was going to be a thread about the crossing of two roads that didn't cross before.

The competition for Best New Intersection is often pretty weak.  Best Renovated Intersection, though, is a tough one.  I hear that Main Street and School Street in Westborough just added a new island and five rows of flowers.

Michael Dugger

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Re:Best New Intersection
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2007, 07:15:13 PM »
From that I can clearly conclude that Chambers Bay is the far and away best new course of 2007 if not of the decade.

Garland,

You know I love ya, bro, but a decade spans 10 yrs, right?

Best course in ten years?  C'mon!
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Garland Bayley

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Re:Best New Golf Course List Intersection
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2007, 08:48:19 PM »
OK, OK, the pithy engineer speak has now been further elucidated.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom Dunne

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Re:Best New Golf Course List Intersection
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2007, 09:13:46 PM »
Garland,

It would be cool to come up with an intersection, but leaving aside their various methodologies, the problem is the magazines use differing windows of time. T+L Golf uses the calendar year, Digest a May '06-April '07 type of window, etc. This places some courses in different pools.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Best New Golf Course List Intersection
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2007, 11:28:54 PM »
Garland:

Chambers Bay was the best course I saw that opened in 2007.  But, the other half of your conclusion is pure speculation.  I've built several courses since 2000 that I would be happy to put up against it.

Jay Cox

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Re:Best New Golf Course List Intersection
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2007, 11:54:03 PM »
OK, OK, the pithy engineer speak has now been further elucidated.


I'm sorry, Garland. I couldn't help myself.  :D

Brett Hochstein

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Re:Best New Golf Course List Intersection
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2007, 12:21:23 AM »
  I actually played this Leopard's Chase while on a family/group vacation, and I have to believe that this was a down year or that ratings are stuck in 1986.  Lots of mounding monotonously arranged in rows and very penal as compared to the establishment's other popular course, Tiger's Eye.  There exists some decent contouring within the fairways, greens, and green surrounds, but it gets overshadowed by the ridiculousness bordering every hole.  

  One very nice thing about it was the conditioning.  Because the course probably opened too soon, the grass was still tight and the ground still hard.  This led to some pretty fun shots through the contours mentioned above and really having to think about club selection and shot-type.  Unfortunately, these conditions probably won't be around in a year or two, and any thoughtful shaping by Mr. Cate will become null.
  The others in our group weren't so fond of the less-than-lush grass, and I tried spending the rest of the trip to get them to realize how fun things were compared to the other green course that was literally all casual water after having no rainfall from the night before.  It's been said before, but why is this so hard to explain to people when it need not even explaining?

  Overall, this is another one of those courses in the Bland Strand.  Bagdrop, cart, starter dressed in themed attire, drive 10 minutes to the tee, then forget most of the holes you just played.

Sorry for the cynicism; it's the last night of studying
"From now on, ask yourself, after every round, if you have more energy than before you began.  'Tis much more important than the score, Michael, much more important than the score."     --John Stark - 'To the Linksland'

http://www.hochsteindesign.com

Andrew Balakshin

Re:Best New Intersection
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2007, 04:30:53 AM »
From that I can clearly conclude that Chambers Bay is the far and away best new course of 2007 if not of the decade.

Garland,

You know I love ya, bro, but a decade spans 10 yrs, right?

Best course in ten years?  C'mon!

C'mon, Michael. Chambers Bay is like a 20 million dollar suit. Yeah, the guy wearing the 20 million dollar suit is going to hold the door for the guy that dosn't make that in 4 months, C'mon!

Andrew Balakshin

Re:Best New Golf Course List Intersection
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2007, 04:34:12 AM »
I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.

On a more serious note, lets wait a year or so to see how this course matures before we start with wild comments like that!

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Best New Golf Course List Intersection
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2007, 09:56:22 AM »
What were the two firsts that Chambers Bay garnered?

Anthony


Garland Bayley

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Re:Best New Golf Course List Intersection
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2007, 10:43:39 AM »
What were the two firsts that Chambers Bay garnered?

Anthony


Travel & Leisure and Golf Magazine. Since Golf Digest ended their 2007 in May, it was not eligible for GD. Clearly it would have won there making the perfect trifecta.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

A.G._Crockett

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Re:Best New Golf Course List Intersection
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2007, 11:13:29 AM »
I haven't been able to play Leopard's Chase yet, but I really, really like Tim Cate's courses.  I think Tiger's Eye, also at Ocean Ridge Plantation in Sunset Beach, NC is a very good golf course in every respect, and Leopard's Chase is supposed to be as good.  I'll play it in July, hopefully.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

RJ_Daley

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Re:Best New Golf Course List Intersection
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2007, 11:56:36 AM »
I've made it pretty clear from the first I visited Chambers Bay in April that I felt it was very special.  It was fun to see various posters on GCA.com put up pictures of their rounds there as the year progressed.  And, there were enough balanced comments by those who weighed in to say there were some negatives in some people's minds and not to say just a herd mentality of GCAers jumping on a band wagon.  

So, I think that a consensus by these magazine raters indicates pretty well that the course has serious credibility as top notch design from many quarters and methods of evaluation (although I don't regard highly the mag rating enterprises, per se, to begin with).  I still enjoy the narratives of people's experience to play there more than the lists placings.

Now, that has me wondering... at this juncture, with a good half season of serious play and a winter of isolated but occasional play, what should the managers at Chambers Bay do to bring it to the critical next phase?  Anotherwords, is it a matter of really allowing the turf to kick into a next phase of maturity by making sure it is not over pressured in this winter slow play time?  Or, is it a matter of course managers brainstorming better more efficient ways of sending out players or marshalling them around the course to make sure it the golf experience there is one of balance between enough time to play at an enjoyable pace, yet not be waiting all the time to play from the next tee like so many CCFADs?  Or, is it a matter of finding a happy median of pricing, that it 'gives back to the community who funded it with very reasonable local fees' and yet doesn't turn the travelling core golfer off with excessive pricing and ultimately become a 'seen it once, played it, too much to afford to go back' as I truly believe a place like Bandon or Whistling may be.

Maybe all of the above...  

Is there a second season criticallity in operational decisions to managing such a new star in the golf universe?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Peter_Herreid

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Re:Best New Golf Course List Intersection
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2007, 01:58:10 PM »
To my esteemed lawkeeper friend from my original home state!

There was a high GCA participant:total # of players on the tee sheet ratio yesterday at Chambers, as Bill Cosgrove and I were two of the 16 or so players there, or a perfectly fine day for golf in the Tacoma area.  

Cold, but not bone-chillingly so, because there was not much of a breeze...

Turf certainly firm enough to attempt all of the necessary shots, even after our predictably "moist" late autumn weather...

I have a number of thoughts re:Chambers now after multiple plays at various times, and multiple conversations with different types of people involved with the project. Based on my impressions and these conversations only, I think a couple of things are clear:

1)  It is NOT a Bandon clone, but they are trying to learn from that experience in all their marketing, F/B, player-worker interactions and even the pricing decisions.  I will maintain that the courses are very different at their cores, but I would be hard-pressed to deny that the feel yesterday was eerily similar to those early years visiting Bandon in the winters;  handfuls of golfers at the most, perfectly fine playing conditions, lots of time to interact with personnel, and a feeling of isolation and discovery admixed...

2)  Nearly everyone involved in CB seems to be projecting the same level of interest in how to improve the experience for all the golfers, not just the Pierce Co players, not just the belt-notchers, not just the high-rollers...

3)  There are areas where the turf is definitely being rested, but it would appear there are a number of different "red flag" areas, where turf wear, traffic pattern, dunes run-off will be ongoing concerns.  Some of the fairway and short greenside bunkering left of #10 looks to be unmaintainable long-term to me...

4)  I will maintain that the course is a very challenging walk, and that long-term I can't see how that won't impact the pace of play and "pool" of available golfers going forward.  We, as a nation, are getting fatter and less mobile and less healthy, and I can see plenty of issues with the steep uphills to #4, #7, #12 and #13 to name of few...

5)  I wish that I could somehow wave a wand and switch one of the steeply downhill par-3s to a par-3 benched on the steep eastern slope.  Just me, not that it would even make the course better, just would have preferred one less "drop shot"--my OPINION only..

6)  The pricing structure in place this winter is an attempt to educate a Puget Sound golfing public that simply doesn't believe many of the ads about "dry winter golf; best in the Puget Sound!".  We have so many of these courses trying to convince people that it's dry as could be, and then you have to mosh around anyway that many golfers up here just shut it down when Husky football season starts and don't pick up the clubs again until May...They are trying to change the perception--may or may not be successful

I feel fortunate enough to be able to experience CB at these early stages, and knowing some of the folks involved on the "front lines".  It will be fascinating to watch the fits and starts of CB during its infancy, and its increased exposure nationally.

I will say that, at least here in the Seattle-Bellevue area, there has not really been a lot of penetration by CB into the consciousness of the non-golf-geek population.  Still viewed by many of my friends as too far to go to play, too cold, too pricey, etc...

RJ_Daley

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Re:Best New Golf Course List Intersection
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2007, 02:24:37 PM »
Quote
The pricing structure in place this winter is an attempt to educate a Puget Sound golfing public that simply doesn't believe many of the ads about "dry winter golf; best in the Puget Sound!".


Peter, I hate to be a wussy but...
http://weather.msn.com/tenday.aspx?wealocations=wc:USWA0441

<45* with 10-15mph and drizzles isn't a day at the beach... ::) ;D

But, I hear you about a few places that must be problematic as you described the red flag areas.  Surely, most any new course with such contours and high adjacent dunes to FWs, must have some tweaking issues.  That is sort of what I was after in terms of a down season to do what need be to address issues found out in the first season go-around.  

As a profit center, how is the F&B there at Chambers?  Are there any long term plans for a solid F&B operation to compliment the golf and exist apart from the golf in low seasons?  I'd suggest as a muni course, that they look very seriously at the arrangement our muni has with leasing out the F&B to a proven local operator.  I'd suggest Wally's of Des Moines WA!  It seems the great courses all have some specialty mundane food item that isn't all that tough to make, but becomes their signature, like She Crab soup at TOC Kiawah, Meat Loaf at Bandon, porch burgers at SH, etc.  Wally's chowder would put Chamber in the elete for a proper regional signature food that seems to become a theme associated with a course!  ;)

I must say, I don't think CB is nearly the tough walk Erin Hills presents.  With enough gore-tex I'd still love to give it a go, even in the next 10 days!   ;) ;D 8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

jefffraim

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Re:Best New Golf Course List Intersection
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2007, 04:20:00 PM »
The Highland Course at Primland garnered recognition from Travel and Leisure in 2006 as one of the best new and Golf Digest in 2007 as Best New over $75. Not bad for a course that did 800 rounds in 2006 and close to 2,000 in 2007. 8)