[Patrick_Mucci]

for muting architectural features ?

Has the introduction of golf carts caused architects to shy away from severe or dramatic architectural features within the field of play ?

[Bart Bradley]

Patrick:

Your post seems to imply that you think this is the case...Care to explain why you think so?

Bart

[Joe Hancock]

Patrick,

We hear about features being designed for ease of maintenance, but I think you are right if you imply that the safe use of carts has influenced feature design as well.

The problem is, there will always be abusers of cart safety protocols that will find a way to hurt themselves or someone else, then blame the course, the architectural firm, the superintendent...you get the picture.

Joe

[David_Tepper]

I am not sure how or why golf carts could be held responsible for muting architectural features. I do not see why that would be the case.

On the other hand, I do think golf carts have, in some cases, allowed golf courses to be built, for better or worse, on severe or dramatic pieces of land.

[Norbert P]

 Bart, you learn quick of the snaring Mucci ways.

Pat, Though I am no fan of carts, I don't think they muted dynamics as much as sped up our ADD epidemic, but maybe that is insidiously the same result - reduced contemplation time.

 

[Doug Ralston]

I am not sure how or why golf carts could be held responsible for muting architectural features. I do not see why that would be the case.

On the other hand, I do think golf carts have, in some cases, allowed golf courses to be built, for better or worse, on severe or dramatic pieces of land.

Of course carts allow courses to be designed on terrain unrealistic for walking.

Quit trying to blame carts for anything and walk if you do not want to use one! Those of us who use them a lot find them worth the rent. You needn't. In fact, stick to flat, featureless, treeless, waterless, ugly terrain if that is what you like.

I love mountains, lakes, rich forest, and I enjoy playing my golf there. Feature that!

Doug

PS: Looks like Doug is in one of THOSE moods.

[Kyle Harris]

Without golf courses... half mile distance between greens and the next tee through housing developments wouldn't be so prevalent methinks.

Suddenly, the golf cart allows the architect to not have to worry about keeping the tee near the green.

[Bart Bradley]

Bart, you learn quick of the snaring Mucci ways.

 

You are darned right...

It seems to me that there are plusses and minuses to almost everything and while I am sure Mucci will have a good list of the evils of the golf cart, I have a hard time making sweeping generalizations...Some golf courses are probably improved because the golf carts allow courses to be built on mountainous properties or allow for the very best areas of terrain to be used for the golf holes even if they are somewhat scattered about a certain parcel of land...On the whole, I do enjoy walking but riding in a cart does not ruin my round.  I look forward to the "snaring" about to come my way...

By the way, how blessed are we to have this site and to be able to so often proved ignorant and small minded!  

Bart

[Doug Ralston]

Without golf courses... half mile distance between greens and the next tee through housing developments wouldn't be so prevalent methinks.

Suddenly, the golf cart allows the architect to not have to worry about keeping the tee near the green.

Without carts, either  . So leave them alone and give the architect more leeway to design from ideal points rather than having to cater to lazy walkers who would rather get beaned than go to a great teeing spot a few thousand yards away ..........

Doug

[Brad Klein]

Pat,

the real architectural damage wrought by golf carts was to:

1) have killed off caddie progams and destroyed recruitment into the game;

2) cultivated a sense among everyday golfers that they are entitled to ride, not walk, thereby missing out on the experience of a tract of land;

3) encouraged incompetent architects to fall back on carts and cart paths as the solutions to all of their routing problems.

[Joel_Stewart]

Brad Klein:   Bravo!

It has led to the mutualation of many classic golf courses including my own.

[Michael Moore]

The proliferation of golf carts has led to an increase of dramatic tee shots from severe locations.

The eleventh hole at Sugarloaf USA drops one hundred and twenty-six feet. Clearly dramatic, and severely difficult to pick the right club, control the ball, or hit the green.

[Mike_Young]

Brad and Kyle say it best.  Routing skills are diminished when one doesn't need to consider the location of the next tee to the area of the previous green.  Thus continuity in a routing is no longer a prt of the game in many instances.  JMO

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

Your post seems to imply that you think this is the case...Care to explain why you think so?

Bart

Bart,

That's what you infered, I certainly didn't imply it.

Do you think that the potential legal liability created by the combination of severe and dramatic features and the use of golf carts could cause an architect to reconsider designing those features ?

Michael Moore,

You and others are missing the point.

Focus on features in the fairway and adjacent areas along with features near the green and surrounds.

[Kyle Harris]

Patrick:

Your post seems to imply that you think this is the case...Care to explain why you think so?

Bart

Bart,

That's what you infered, I certainly didn't imply it.

Do you think that the potential legal liability created by the combination of severe and dramatic features and the use of golf carts could cause an architect to reconsider designing those features ?

Pat,

It's most certainly a factor I'm sure - however, I think the bigger liability a club faces is alcohol consumption plus cart usage.

[Bart Bradley]

Patrick:

Your post seems to imply that you think this is the case...Care to explain why you think so?

Bart

Bart,

That's what you infered, I certainly didn't imply it.

Do you think that the potential legal liability created by the combination of severe and dramatic features and the use of golf carts could cause an architect to reconsider designing those features ?

Michael Moore,

You and others are missing the point.

Focus on features in the fairway and adjacent areas along with features near the green and surrounds.

Patrick:

Again...it is probably mixed.  These fears might change it for the less dramatic at times but carts might allow for more dramatic at others...Few golfers, if any, could walk a course like Champion Hills in Hendersonville, NC...Many dramatic elevation changes, up and down...Now, personally, I didn't like Champion Hills but certainly it had dramatic features.  I am sure others can think of specific examples where carts allowed for the design of a truly great dramatic hole/shot...The hike up to tee off at this Banff Springs hole would be daunting without a cart:



So, for me it probably limits in some ways and expands in others....and of course you implied your opinion by asking the question...aren't you a fellow Domer.

Bart

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bart,

I don't see any severe or dramatic features in your photo, just a flat fairway with a view from the tee.

You, Michael Moore and others are missing the gist of the topic.

It's about severe features within the field of play, not elevation changes at the tee.

ND = Yes

[TEPaul]

Patrick, as usual, posts a thread on some topic and not long thereafter he basically accuses most everyone of missing the point.

That doesn't say much for Patrick's point or how he presents it, does it?  

[Bill_McBride]

The dominant design feature of Jack Nicklaus courses is elevated tees with most holes playing downhill.  How would this have worked without golf carts?  These courses might be walkable but only for the most physically capable.

[Joe Hancock]

I shouldn't admit this, but I think I understood.....

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Well I got to play 49 holes today without ever rushing in 2 to 4 somes. We started at 9:10 and took over an hour for lunch. I could not have had such a great day without them on a day this short.

[Michael Moore]

The proliferation of golf carts has led to an increase in dramatic and severely downhill approach shots.

Many courses that are geared exclusively towards the golf cart hoist the golfer over and over again to higher teeing grounds than usual.

Although these teeing grounds are unfortunately not in the field of play, they often lead the golfer to places thereupon that continue to plunge down the same steep slope.

[Eric Pevoto]

Pat--

I think (along, apparently, with only with Joe Hancock  ) I know what you're getting to.  

At worst it's a liability issue.  At best it's just a bumpy ride for Mr. and Mrs. Haversham.  God forbid they spill some of their drink of choice resting in the convenient cup holders provided through the genius of ClubCar/EZ-Go/etc.  

What a gut-rumbler a ride around the Old Course must be.  Perish.

Along with this, though, I think you have to consider maintenance vehicles.  It's not an easy ride for the mower.

In short: Yes.

[Adam Clayman]

Funny, I thought Patrick was referring to the hideous repetitive mounding and shaping needed to hide carts paths both in the LZ and green complex.

[Matt_Cohn]

Patrick,

To your specific question, my answer is a tentative "no". I can't think of any architectural features I've seen on an older course that wouldn't be built on a newer course solely due to liability for golf cart incidents. If anything, the potential for golf cart disaster seems higher on many modern courses compared to older ones.

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