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Rich Goodale

No Trump?
« on: November 29, 2007, 02:06:09 PM »
The Donald fell at the 2nd hurdle today in Aberdeen in the planning process for his Menie Estate golf resort plan.  He has a 3rd and last chance, an appeal to the Scottish Executive, but this is by no means a slam dunk.

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No Trump?
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2007, 02:08:21 PM »
Rich -- this might be a loaded question, but...1) what do you think the likelihood his plan will pass is; and 2) will it be a good thing or a bad thing for Scottish golf, tourism, that area, etc.  

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No Trump?
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2007, 02:16:45 PM »
Is anyone rooting for Donald?
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No Trump?
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2007, 02:17:45 PM »
If he builds the best course the world has ever seen (as he is advertising.... ::) :o ;) ) then I am!

Rich Goodale

Re:No Trump?
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2007, 02:18:17 PM »
Matt

No question is loaded if the questionee has no dog in the fight.

1.  Only if Alex Salmond decides that he wants to be Donald's best buddy (and if he does, it will cost Donald--who is well out of his admittedly shallow depth--dearly).

2.  I think it would be a good thing--for Scotalnd, for the area, for golf, for tourism, for etc., but only if Trump is closely monitored and not given a blank check.

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No Trump?
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2007, 03:22:48 PM »
I agree with Rich's second point - with a bit of luck both would learn a bit from each other. The Donald is certainly well OTT in all respects, but Scotland is not so blessed with opportunity, investment, wealth etc that it can afford to look a gift horse in the mouth. Having said that, the full extent of his amibition - gated housing estates, multiple high-rise buildings, lots of hotel rooms - not even Donald Trump can change the weather!

henrye

Re:No Trump?
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2007, 05:24:05 PM »

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No Trump?
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2007, 05:46:27 PM »
Poor Donald.... :'( :'( :'( :P
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No Trump?
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2007, 06:22:41 PM »
2.  I think it would be a good thing--for Scotalnd, for the area, for golf, for tourism, for etc., but only if Trump is closely monitored and not given a blank check.

Rich

Surely you don't think government can do a better job in guiding/regulating the project than the free market would? :)

Pat Brockwell

Re:No Trump?
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2007, 07:33:07 PM »
In Scotland, I think these decisions are a valid function of government, I say NO TRUMP. He don't get it. For him, golf is a way to sell real estate.  He's not about the golf, he's into sales.

Mike Sweeney

Re:No Trump?
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2007, 07:49:43 PM »
In Scotland, I think these decisions are a valid function of government, I say NO TRUMP. He don't get it. For him, golf is a way to sell real estate.  He's not about the golf, he's into sales.

Well this one I have to disagree with. He obviously knows how to sell real estate without golf, and most of his deals in the US he now just licenses his name, puts up no money and collects a royalty risk free. Certainly a deal that I could fall in love with.  :)

It appears he would have to put up his own money in Scotland.

I doubt he has made much money off his golf in the US, including the real estate that is tied in. He seems like a golf junkie that is somewhat bored with his day to day job, and is living a dream that many of us would love to live.

His final poduct may be different than what I would prefer(certainly the name Trump National in the Land of Fat Baldy Drummer  ;) doesn't work for me), but at the end of the day he seems fairly golf obsessed and has strong opinions about his courses. Sort of sounds like our boy Tom Doak!

Pat Brockwell

Re:No Trump?
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2007, 08:14:48 PM »
Tom Trump, Donald Doak? That's a strech.

Rich Goodale

Re:No Trump?
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2007, 12:31:10 AM »
2.  I think it would be a good thing--for Scotalnd, for the area, for golf, for tourism, for etc., but only if Trump is closely monitored and not given a blank check.

Rich

Surely you don't think government can do a better job in guiding/regulating the project than the free market would? :)

I didn't say that, Lloyd, in the quote above or elsewhere, but now that you mention it, yes, I do!

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No Trump?
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2007, 04:57:08 AM »
having been quite vocal about this in the past, all i can say is that if it does go ahead, i hope it goes ahead with a significantly revised masterplan... the idea of 900 apartments rising to 9 stories high and a mock victorian 7 storey hotel along with all the other concrete planned is just appalling...

...one good thing it seems is that martin hawtree is being given significant input... the last issue of GCA indicated that there would be no cart paths on the golf course which is one big no-no struck off my list...

...still, he's going to have to make his money back somehow so it's hardly going to be a 36 hole members club, is it?

Chris Moore

Re:No Trump?
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2007, 09:39:45 AM »
How about this take from the New York Times:

"Perhaps the demise of his planned Scottish golf resort is just as well, though, given the not exactly sun-kissed climate of the Aberdeenshire coast, where it typically rains two days out of three, brisk winds blow more or less constantly and the temperature rarely climbs past 75 even in the height of summer. One wonders how much relish golfers wealthy enough to travel in Trump style ever would have had for conditions like those."

Methinks the writer has played nae links golf . . .


henrye

Re:No Trump?
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2007, 12:19:22 PM »
...he seems fairly golf obsessed and has strong opinions about his courses. Sort of sounds like our boy Tom Doak!

Can't imagine a greater insult.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2007, 02:47:15 PM by HenryE »

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No Trump?
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2007, 12:35:04 PM »
I'm sure Ray Kroc loved hamburgers at one time too.

The Donald using his own money is a huge so what.

If he loves golf, why would he have to make the project so grandiose? Why not just a golf course? The marketing hype is already out of control. Sure, that crap can work in a place like AC or LV, but as has been suggested above, scarring that landscape with this man's sense of taste seems out of character for the Scots.

Interesting where his defenders reside.


"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No Trump?
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2007, 01:33:28 PM »
Scottish local authorities reject Donald Trump golf course plan
 
By BEN MCCONVILLE, Associated Press Writer
November 29, 2007

EDINBURGH, Scotland (AP) -- A Scottish council on Thursday rejected a plan by Donald Trump to build a golf course on a stretch of remote and stunning coastline that is home to some of the country's rarest birds.

"Mr. Trump is shocked, extremely disappointed and dismayed at this decision," said George Sorial, managing director of Trump International Golf Resorts. "This is certainly not something we expected."

 
After a heated debate lasting 2 1/2 hours, Aberdeenshire Council's Infrastructure Committee rejected plans for the Trump International Golf Links after a tie-breaking vote from the committee chair. An initial vote was 7-7.

Opponents of the development said sand dunes at the Menie Estate, 15 miles north of Aberdeen, should be protected as the habitat of rare birds such as Lapwings, Redshanks and Skylarks.

A week ago, Trump and his organization were jubilant when the council's Formartine area committee approved the golf course in a 7-4 vote. But Thursday's vote takes precedence over the earlier decision.

Sorial, who attended the Infrastructure Committee meeting, said: "On a personal basis the Menie project has been of great importance to Mr. Trump. I have just spoken to him and he cannot believe this.

"The council failed to take into account the wishes of the people, and ultimately they are the losers here."

He said Trump was now looking at an alternative site in other European countries, including Ireland, but did not rule out appealing Thursday's vote to ministers in Scotland's government.

The vote is the latest hurdle in Trump's four-year odyssey to turn a stretch of sand dunes north of Aberdeen into a $2.1 billion golf resort complete with two 18-hole courses, a luxurious 450-bedroom hotel, 950 vacation homes, 36 golf villas and 500 upscale homes costing from $827,000 to more than $2.1 million each.

Residents in the quiet nearby village of Balmedie objected to the proposed resort, calling it a "gated community" with too many houses that would spoil the area's quiet atmosphere.

Michael Forbes became a cause celebre after refusing to sell his farm in the middle of the estate to Trump. The tycoon called Forbes' ramshackle land with dilapidated barns and abandoned tractors "a disgrace to Scotland."

On Thursday, Forbes said: "I am delighted at this result. At last someone's seen sense. The whole project was about building houses, not the golf course."

Councilor Alastair Ross, who led opposition to the plan at Aberdeenshire Council, said: "Very little of the money generated from the project would have remained in the area. There was a fast buck to be made."

Trump supporters said the resort would benefit Scotland's economy, create 6,000 jobs and boost tourism. But environmentalists and some local residents continued to oppose it.

The area has more than 125 miles of unspoiled beaches, and residents have prospered, thanks to the North Sea oil boom in Aberdeen. But in recent years, the oil industry has declined from its peak in the 1980s.

Trump has spoken proudly of his Scottish roots. His late mother was a Macleod from the Isle of Lewis.

Sorial also has said the tycoon wants to build a golf course in Scotland because it is the sport's home.
 
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No Trump?
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2007, 03:16:38 PM »
The Don lives on...?

Council in 'urgent' Trump meeting  
 
Mr Trump is considering an appeal against the decision
An urgent special meeting of Aberdeenshire Council has been announced in the wake of the refusal for Donald Trump's £1bn golf plans.
Council leader Anne Robertson said the meeting was being called in light of the "overwhelming and unprecedented public response and dismay expressed".

The meeting will consider the decision - and will also look at possible options for overturning it.

The plans for the Menie Estate were narrowly rejected on Thursday.

Councillor Robertson said: "The public response has been quite overwhelming and we must listen carefully to the views of the people who elected us.

"This development has the potential to be an extremely important diversification of our economy and I personally will do all I can to keep the application alive."

The meeting will also review how the council deals with major planning applications in future.

Appeal considered

The time and place of the meeting have yet to be announced.

Mr Trump is considering an appeal after Aberdeenshire Council's infrastructure services committee narrowly rejected the plans.

The controversial project was given outline planning approval last week, but then went to Aberdeenshire Council's infrastructure committee. It rejected the plans on the chairman Martin Ford's casting vote after a tied vote.

Opposition to the scheme has included environmental groups and some local residents.

 
Opponents have fears about the environmental impact of the plans

Protesters have claimed that the resort would have a major impact on wildlife and destroy a beautiful part of Scotland.

A spokesperson for the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds welcomed the refusal.

Sustainable Aberdeenshire, a group fighting the plans, expressed astonishment at the lengths people were going to to support the application.

Spokesman Mickey Foote said: "There is a process and the parties should stick to that. Donald Trump should take the decision on the chin and appeal if he wants. It's not playing by the rules."

The chairman of Aberdeen City and Shire Economic Forum (Acsef), Patrick Machray, and Geoff Runcie, the chief executive of Aberdeen and Grampian Chamber of Commerce, criticised the refusal decision.

The Trump International Links plan includes two championship golf courses and 1,500 homes.

Backed plans

The US tycoon claimed he needed to build the houses to pay for the development, which he wants to construct over the next five years at the 1,400 acre site near Balmedie.

Councillors on the Formartine area committee backed the plans last week by seven votes to four.

The development then went to the more powerful infrastructure services committee.

An Aberdeenshire councillor who voted against Mr Trump's £1bn golf resort plans has claimed she was later assaulted at home.

Debra Storr, 47, was one of the councillors who went against the US billionaire's plans.

She claims she was verbally abused and pushed at her home on Friday morning.

A Grampian Police spokesman later said: "A 59-year-old female has been interviewed and charged in connection with a minor disturbance".

 

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No Trump?
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2007, 03:20:54 PM »
We Scots are nothing if not tenacious...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/7121112.stm

North East. South West. What-E-V-E-R..... ;D

FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Alfie

Re:No Trump?
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2007, 08:03:51 PM »
Some excellent and...."fair" comments on Scotland's wee golf course dilemna. I had thought there might exist an extremist faction on this site inclined towards the "we hate Donald Trump" persaution  ;)

Personally, I am in total favour of the project going ahead and think it would really open up the Highlands for all you high rollers around the globe. As for people like me - well I could dream of getting a job cleaning out the "shunkies"  8)

As far as the environment is concerned ? A load of guff (BS) ! What we have here in Scotland is a whole group of politically correct institutions (quangoe's) with overpaid management teams trying hard to find ways to justyfy their existence !
And I'm all for the environment and conservation issue's, but the way in which £millions are squandered here is a bloody disgrace !

In Aberdeen we see a cooncil where seven of it's electee's through their own wisdom, choose the soft and non confrontational path of rejection.

However, Martin's link states a possible option to the south and Dumfriesshire ? Now if that were to happen - I wouldn't have nearly as far to travel in order to get those dirty shunkies cleaned up  :D

Regardless of what people think of Donald Trump, this investment is just too good to pass up (IMO) in regard to the north east and Highlands economy in particular, let alone that of Scotland's existing golfing product.

Then there's our "local hero" who refuses to sell up his few acres to the Trump organisation ? Well, good on him for refusing to succumb to the capitalist band wagon.....but.....aren't those few acres good reason for an environmental / conservation investigation ?

We're all hypocrites - only some more than others  ;)

Alfie.

Jason McNamara

Re:No Trump?
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2007, 08:12:47 PM »
So, let's say someone else comes in and wants to build a course.  No hotel, no houses, etc.  Does the planning commission agree?  

Is the 'no' vote a reaction to Mr. Trump, the scale, or both (assuming one can separate the preceding two considerations)?

Alfie

Re:No Trump?
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2007, 08:34:11 PM »
Jason,

Let's say (a fairly safe assumption) that nobody else is going to come in - so the planning committee wont need to sit nor agree anything. The opportunity will be long gone !

I would hazard a guess (hell, it's a fact) that the politics are playing a big part in this. There's also an element of the short sighted ones who just don't like rich people and those same rich people building houses for...er  ..rich (or perhaps even nearly rich) people ?

The crazy thing is, that all those houses, whether we want them or not, generate an incredible amount of taxation and other revenue.

I reckon it will go to the Scottish Government to decide - where I would expect a definite YES vote ?

Alfie.

Mike Sweeney

Re:No Trump?
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2007, 10:00:58 PM »
Alfie,

When I first introduced you to GCA, I had no idea that you would one day be competing with Donnie Trump for golfers.  ;) Reality is this type of over the top development could make your hickory course concept more popular as a distinct contrast to Trump Scotland. I hope you still have the blueprints in the attic.

Trump likes the drama. This is not over and my guess is he will be invited back and he will come back with a scaled back version which will be what he really wanted from day 1.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:No Trump?
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2007, 10:36:20 PM »
Alfie:

I know at least 3-4 developers who would be happy to build a golf course and a small lodge on that site and do without all the $1 billion worth of housing, and still manage to make ends meet, if the property could be obtained at a reasonable price and you didn't have to buy the mansion as part of it.

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