[Dean Paolucci]

Mike - Is your point about access or architecture.  I think that if you get both architecture and conditions in one place you should be willing to pay a premium for access.  Their has always been an inflated price associated with proximity to NYC as well.  $125 for The Knoll vs $450 or more for Pebble Beach is insane.  Restore and they will come!

[Mike Mosely]

Guys, I've just found Ballyowen overpriced.  Sure the conditoning is great, but conditioning is kinda low on my list of priorities.  As I understand, and please correct me if I'm wrong, ballyowen is one course in a facility that has a few more as well, but isnt Ballyowen the flagship?  Also, it bills itself as a links - ""You'll swear you're in scotland" - but that doesn't look like scotland to me.  Take for example number 6, the par three over water.  How is that scottish?

I always have a nice time there, but that's a nice time for $60, not a monumental time worth $125.  If I'm gonna pay $125, it should have better architecture and greens.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Hold the phone buckeroo.

Ballyowen is one of the top five public courses in NJ in my humble opinion. I'm not suggesting it an sniff the greatness of Bethpage Black but among the Garden State offerings the course holds its own very well.

Have to ask this -- what tees did you play? That can make a mega difference. Take holes #6 and #7 -- when played from the middle or front markers the complete nature of the holes mentioned changes a good bit. Ditto with holes like #10 and #17, to name two others.

No doubt the fees are high at Ballyowen but they do that for tier pricing in order to keep the masses occupied with the other layouts they have available.

Dean P:

That was good of you to outline for those not familiar with The Knoll to post all the historical elements. The key factor is to get the course on some sort of consistent plan for improvement. I have to say that despite the intentions of George Bahto the facility has crept and crawled along to get things going. I'm happy to hear about all the elements that George has mentioned because there's no doubt a properly restored and upgraded Knoll could be a real test of golf and one whose architeture would be fully appreciated by a great many people.

We shall see ...

[George_Bahto]

Dean - 18:  "the fairway has not moved but shrunk and the left cut has receded "

yes - right side stayed and the left shrunk in

[Matt_Ward]

George:

Quick question -- what are the plans (if there are any yet) to strengthen the par-5 16th hole?

I've always thought it was very weak to start with.

One other thing -- are there any plans to extend the 10th tee to the point further up the hill where the wedding gazebo is / was located ?

T H A N K S   !

[George_Bahto]

Matt: "Quick question -- what are the plans (if there are any yet) to strengthen the par-5 16th hole?"

Matt it is the 15th not the 16th  - new tee will be directly behind the previous green and the hole will be 45 - 50 yards longer. This puts all the original architecture back in the hole for most people



Matt Ward: "One other thing -- are there any plans to extend the 10th tee to the point further up the hill where the wedding gazebo is / was located ?"

We can't - we had it up there years ago and it was so high, you were new treetop level ..... very funky and quite goofy up there. It looked good - did not play well at all.

Anyhow that area has been taken over by the catering facility now.

[astavrides]

I played Knoll West today.  It's too bad they don't allow walking because its very walkable.  Green fees of $67 weekdays, $86 weekdays.  It is probably not worth those fees in the winter when conditioning isnt as good, and with restoration going on.

The greens (at this time of year) were at slow to medium speed.  At this speed most all of my putts were pretty straight, unlike what one might expect reading the comments above.

I was wondering why they were going to all that trouble to restore a lot of the bunkers--the ones that are maybe 180 yds from the back tees, but with new back tees being put in, it might make some sense.  

I enjoyed the front especially.  The back nine seemed to have a lot of holes which are pretty straight, but play between thick groves of trees that make recovery nearly impossible.  (And balls hard to find with all the leaves on the ground).  I wonder if any tree removal will be done or has been contemplated.

The course has a cool look to it (as well as some very good holes and strategies), and I look forward to going back when all the work is done and it is in better condition.

[Matt_Ward]

astavrides:

Good comments.

The sad fact is that too much of what you hear about Knoll West is the sheer speculation about what 'MIGHT' happen. I have been watching the years pass by (no disrespect at all to George B) and the pace of action from the powers-that-be has been nothing less than G-L-A-C-I-A-L.

The fees you were charged were nothing less than a joke because you frankly were playing simply a shell of what can be present.

Knoll / West is dependent not only upon outside expert advice -- which it has with George B -- but with a determination to really get the work done in a timely manner. I have heard all the stories and all the possibilities for this and that. Unfortunately, such "commitment" and 10 cents won't buy you a local newspaper.

Right now -- my view is the Missouri approach -- show me. The skill of George Bahto is not the issue -- it's whether the facility is prepared to put up or shut up. It's that simple.

p.s. I agree with your take on the back nine -- it's way too treed and needs a bit more on the strategic side to be the equal of the front. No doubt there are a few holes of critical note -- the 13th and 18th, to name two quick ones, but the one-dimensional aspect of the inner half needs a bit more bite and flair.

[Mike Mosely]

Hey Matt, its not the easiest time trying to get members to come up with gobs of liquyid cash for renovations...this isn't liberty national we're talking here.  Forget glacial, be grateful; we have anything at all...the members could have looked at George and said, "sorry, not interested"...and then where would we go for a $70 public Raynor?

astavrides...I am shocked...shocked!...that you had straight putts on those greens...at any speed.  I just dont see how that's possible.  Bahto, your thoughts?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

I'm with you, I can't see how those greens putted straight.

George,

Exactly "who" is the decision maker when it comes to The Knoll ?

Matt,

I think there are more good holes on the back nine than you give it credit for.

Had my club swapped our club for The Knoll, as was proposed, or had the member group that I knew been allowed to buy it, it would have been fabulous.

Like you, I'm frustrated by the pace of progress

[George_Bahto]

Mike: the course is virtually closed. Most days last week there were just a few groups are going through.

I was putting on some of the greens last Thursday and they are slow - I’m not sure how often they gave been cutting them these past two weeks.

I’d say they were rolling about at 7 ft at best but they still take pretty good breaks. I was on the second green for about an hour, it’s one of the most “funner” ones, and there were enough breaks to keep me “interested.”

About the cost of restoration:

Money is not coming from members. Money is coming from the Town of Parsippany - there is a huge difference. Most of the time the town in not the least interested in The Knoll, except they do not want to hear anything negative about the course, the club or hear anything negative from the members.

It’s not as the last post Matt made. I know where he’s coming from and he really likes the course a lot but this is not a private club.

I’m getting my way - but it’s a bit maddening because the town commits money in drips and drabs.

I’ve been getting a new and different contractor every year but the past two contractors have been fine, especially the shapers.

There are such restrictions placed in the bidding contracts by the town, aside from the small potential profits for the contractors, I can’t get my usual contrat5ors to even bid on the work.

It’s like trying to steal second base carrying your wife’s groceries.

Of the 32 fairway bunkers being restored, half are completed, all but 6 are shaped and waiting their turn for drainage, sod, sand, etc. and only the fairway bunkers on holes #1 AND #18 have not been touched yet.

If we get a “workable” December, I might get them all finished.

We’re (that should read “THEY ARE” - the maintenance crew) doing tree removal in house and through the fairway bunker restoration this fall, key (large) trees near bunkers have been removed. Many more will be coming down this winter.

The Knoll is a tight golf course by nature - that’s part of what makes scoring so tough. If you open up fairway alleys on three holes on the back nine (10 - 11 - and esp 14) you’re letting the big hitters flair away. The same holes true on #’s 2 - 8 and 9 on the front.

With the new tees going in, restoring a lot of tee-ball strategy, and if I can get the super to get the green speeds up to a bit more than 10 - 10.5, I’ll have gotten what I’ve been striving for (over these many years)

Surprisingly (yahoo), about 4 - 5 months ago, I’ve seen a dramatic change in the overall attention to detail by the maintenance dept.  - suddenly “the care” - they “getting it”

I’m winning!

[George_Bahto]

Pat: "decision maker" - hah!!!!

many layers of bureaucracy - think U S Congress

seriously   - I propose, it goes through channels up to town hall - hangs there for quite a while; finally get through the administration and now we have to get it into a budget !!!!

out it goes to bid (assuming they get the bid proposal written correctly)  (lowest bid - duh - that's how you get a good contractor?)

So there's six months shot in the ass on that phase .... you see, we have to do things in phases - can’t think about too many things at once, you know!

If I could get them to bite the bullet ......

[wsmorrison]

Geroge, you say:  The Knoll is a tight golf course by nature - that’s part of what makes scoring so tough.  Was it designed and built that way or has it evolved into a tight golf course?  Your comment leads one to believe it was intended to be that way.  

From Google Earth

[George_Bahto]

Was it designed and built that way or has it evolved into a tight golf course?  Your comment leads one to believe it was intended to be that way.  

 no

[George_Bahto]

[George_Bahto]

Don't get fooled by some of the widths of fairways.

The holes on the left half of the course was originally farmland and those fairways in that section aerial were at least twice as wide as they are now.

The holes in the treeed area that look narrow by comparison: If we returned to that width today, the holes would not be considered narrow at all.

[George_Bahto]

here are the holes, numbered:

I have drawn in two lines on the 18th fairway that show what the width of the fairway is today

[Mike_Cirba]

George,

That is awesome.

Man, I love this stuff.  

[Paul_Turner]

Nice aerial!

I guess the only weakness in Banks's routing is the 12th tee gets pinged by sliced tee shots off the 7th.

In general I think the strongest holes are the ones in the open.

[George_Bahto]

Paul: "I guess the only weakness in Banks's routing is the 12th tee gets pinged by sliced tee shots off the 7th"

that's right in today's world, Paul. The town, ever fearful of law suits, had a black screen (ugly) put up to protect the 12th tee (although, I've never seen anything hit near a player)

remember, in 1928 this course was built for the favor of just 30 millionaires and that was never a problem

the main prob is that we have a lot of outings (Mon - Tues - Thurs and half of Fri) and as usual there are a lot of bad drives

[Matt_Ward]

The issue I have with the management of the place is that they are quick to take compliments -- often times inspite of what they actually commit to doing -- but when the reverse reaction happens they take umbrage.

The simple fact is that inertia has been problem #1 for way too long. George Bahto is as gifted as anyone the club could possibly hope for in terms of sheer love for the place.

If the management had taken even tiny steps but done so consistently since the time Parsippany took ownership you'd see the kind of course that many who opine on it would love to see.

I am a big fan of the place and clearly the potential is there. Alas, I have heard all the potential stories previously and simply want to see the concrete steps really move ahead.

My advice to Parsippany -- you've got a masterpiece no less than any other architectural addition one can get for one's town -- it's time to show some real and sustained interest. Bahto can hit home runs -- just be sure to give him the bat and ball to do so.

Mark M:

Please do not lecture on me on what the commitment is about and the silly idea that "globs" of $$ are needed. The town put zero into the place and really abandoned the whole idea of bringing back to life what the place can be. Parsippany looked upon the Knoll as a cash cow -- simply push as many golfers as possible on the place and suck it dry for all the $$ you can grab.

I used to enjoy playing the place but the sheer horde of players -- especially during outings -- makes the experience equivalent to a death march.

I have no issue with higher fees provided they bear a direct relationship with a "cause and effect" that demonstrates an awareness in maximizing what can be done. The Knoll has a fascinatng history -- but it's long overdue for the future to be adequately and consistently addressed.

As I've said before -- we shall see.

Pat M:

I see the return nine as the weaker of the two. Candidly, one of the real sleeper holes is the superb 9th -- the elevated green site is a gem!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt,

With the infusion of funds and some fine tuning I can see the back nine increasing its challenge.

# 13, # 14 and # 18 are already strong holes.
# 17 is a pretty good par 3.

I happen to like # 12 and # 15 as well.

I think your frustration with the pace of meaningful progress is shared by many.

George Bahto,

If the town cares so little about the golf course, would they consider selling the Banks 18 and keeping the other course ?

[George_Bahto]

Matt:

The town will have spent well over a million dollars by the time I finish this phase. They actually take very little money out of the Knoll’s income (I think it happened twice in the past five years when we had “overage”).

...... and I have tee money in the next budget.

The course is supposed to be self sufficient and we are, but we don’t generate enough income to fund a restoration.

From the township point of view (not mine), they never intended to spend township money on the course neither but I’ve gotten them to dig in, so we do “phases.”

Their feeling is that township funds should not go into the Knoll facility because most of those funds would be coming from non-golfing township tax payers - a valid point.

You also alluded to the town taking “tiny steps over the years” ..... the former administrator was put into the clink, if you remember right .... those were pretty ugly days for the course ..... money going “south” and non getting to the golf course. That’s totally changed now.

Matt: “Alas, I have heard all the potential stories previously and simply want to see the concrete steps really move ahead
Alas, I have heard all the potential stories previously and simply want to see the concrete steps really move ahead: “Alas, I have heard all the potential stories previously and simply want to see the concrete steps really move ahead”

Matt we’re well beyond “potential” - you have to come back in the spring and you will be amazed at where we are now.

[Matt_Ward]

George:

I hear you -- but you have to KNOW where my skepticism takes place. A few years back when Jersey Golfer rated the course high among other public courses -- a top ten position if memory serves -- I was under the clear impression THEN that more work would be done and that the time line for completion would be rather straightforward. George, that was a few years AGO.

Fast forward to 2007 and much still needs to be done.

I neither doubt your intention nor passion but the management there doesn't get a complete free pass because of the checkered past.

Plenty of other municipalities / counties here in Jersey have done a worthy job in bringing to life the quality of the courses they have.

I'll hold on final judgement and see what shakes out next golf season. But, I'll say this again -- let's not judge potential as being the final word. Glad to hear about tee money in the next budget but I think it would be really helpful if management at The Knoll did what Bethpage does in regard to capital improvements. Itemize them to the people who play there so people can see what is indeed going to be done. Sometimes I have seen management (not simply at The Knoll) talk the talk but rarely walk the walk where a detailed capital restoration / upgrading plan is put pen to pad so that patrons can indeed get a sense of not only a plan but a fruition date when all the main work is completed.

Best of luck ...

[Phil_the_Author]

Matt,

You observed, "I think it would be really helpful if management at The Knoll did what Bethpage does in regard to capital improvements. Itemize them to the people who play there so people can see what is indeed going to be done..."

Do you know something that I don't? WHEN has anyone at Bethpage itemized capital improvements to the playing public? Or made known any upgrades, improvements or renovations before the work begins?

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