[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Doug,

I don't believe it meets all of the criteria for a road hole green.

However, in the sense that a triangle is similar, but not congruent, I can see some making a case for some "Road Hole" like qualities in # 1 green.

The hole has been labeled a "Valley" hole.

I love the progressive bunker configuration on # 4.

I've always loved The Knoll.

My club in New Jersey may have made a huge mistake by not swapping our land with The Knoll when Bloomfield College owned it

The real shame is that the family of the deceased owner, Mr Aiello, refused to sell the course to a number of interested member groups.  Had that occured, the golf course would probably have become well known far beyond Northern NJ.

The greens and surrounds are fabulous.
The course is a little land locked, which thwarts adding distance without compromising angles of attack.

And, with the town owning the property, conditioning isn't what it could be if the course were private.

The golf course is fun and challenging.

I plan on holding my GCA.com get together at The Knoll when Uncle George is done, if the club permits.

It's an architectural gem, if you like CBM-SR-CB.

Wayne Morrison,

You'll be my guest, as I know it would pain you to pay to attend  

[George_Bahto]

Pat: that was an error in my Knoll book (before I learned more) - yes plays to  valley of sorts but it is a Road Hole green influence ................. some jerk threw the sign away but years ago the tee was up on top where the carts are today and there was a fairly large "plaque" stating something like" this is a replication of the road hole at St Andrews Scotland ............  it ended up in a dumpster in the late 80's before I could rescue it (sorry for the error in my book - I was a dry cleaner at the time).

I’m trying to get them to do a new version of the Knoll book. The old ones are gone.

[Mike Mosely]

SO could someone please exaplain what a valley hole is and why we thought one at Knoll was one before it was determined to be a road hole?  Thanks.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

They must have sent me off the back at The Knoll when I played it because the first two holes were relatively straight holes which don't look anything like the hole templates you mention.

Is the 18th set into the hill just to the right of the halfway house (as you look from the fairway) with the menacing front left bunker?

[Matt_Ward]

Pat M:

I never said the greens at the Knoll were less in stature than what one finds at BB.

George B:

Congrats on your determination to get things fast-tracked. It HAS taken plenty of time but the net result - assuming all goes as planned -- will be something to be justifiably proud of given what the Knoll was originally about.

Pushing the yardage to just over 7,000 yards will be in keeping with what technology has done and likely result in having comparable shot values to what Banks originally envisioned.

Gents:

Like I said before -- fully restored Knoll / West can easily gain a top five public course position in NJ and be worthy of a visit from any of the folks who are passionate about architecture.

Since we on at Thanksgiving -- I thank George B for all his labors of love with the course. Without him -- the place would be no where near what it can and should be.

[Jay Flemma]

Here here Matt!  Seconded.  I'm thankful for the health and love of my family, girl and co-workers.  After that, in the world of golf, I'm thankful for the Knoill and George's work in restoring a great golf course for the public and for allowing the public t play it at a fair price!

And thankful for Ran and GCA.  here's to a Happy, Healthy and Holy Holiday season to all!

[SPDB]

One of the best Valley holes is the 16th at The Creek (one of the overlooked holes there). It plays from an elevated tee down into a valley and then back up to an elevated green. In this regard, it has a lot in common with the 1st at The Knoll (although the elevation from fairway to green at the Knoll is pretty benign). The bunker set-up on the green-end at The Knoll definitely reminded me of a Road green, but tee to green it also has Valley qualities. I'd say its a mixture of the two.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

SPDB,

I think # 16 at The Creek is one of the most underrated holes in golf.

George Bahto,

I played The Knoll quite frequently in the 50's and early 60's and no such sign existed on the 1st tee.  I'd be curious as to the signs origin.

The flanking nature of the left greenside bunker along with the angle of attack into the green would seem to eliminate the green as being categorized as a "Road Hole" green.

I go back to my sophomore geometry classes and similar but not congruent triangles.

One could imagine that # 5 could have made a great "Road Hole"

[nandoal]

I need Knoll Clubs pics please??

[Jay Flemma]

One green:



The double plateau at two:



The redan at 3:



the redan bunker:



the biarritz at 13



the two shot redan at 18



the short at 6

[Matt_Ward]

George:

Just one quick question -- has the drainange issues been resolved at the course -- especially after the short par-3 6th -- you know the entire 7th fairway and sometimes spilling out even further with the adjoining 12th?

p.s. If you are at liberty can you itemize the breakdown of the "new" yardage totals for the course -- tips, middle, etc, etc.

Thanks ...

[George_Bahto]

yes - drainage solved in that area (the lowest part of the course)

then

no - cannot detail new yardage but the present tougher par-4's will be even more difficlt

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Until this thread, I NEVER heard anyone refer to # 18 green as a Redan.

I can see # 1 green at The Creek being categorized as a Redan, but not # 18 at The Knoll.

The angle of attack into the green, in relation to the configuration of the green would seem to be a disqualifying  factor in considering it as a redan

The fairly level, left to right putting surface would be another.

[Jay Flemma]

Ahh Pat, therein lies Bahto's genius! He discovered that the fairway actually moved many yards to the left!  The true angle of attack when it was built was as shown in another photo I'll post.  george will tell you more, but he noticed that his approach was always in the 185-195 range...when he researched it, he found the fwy moved!  Hence he now calls it the "Two shot redan!"

As they say in the Patrick O'Brian "Master and Commander" novels, "now sir, prepare to be amazed!"

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Jay,

It would have to be just the opposite.

That the fairway was to the right.

The first hole precludes the 18th fairway from being further right and the further left you move the fairway, the more you lose the prefered Redan angle where one would use the approach and/or shoulder to assist and/or direct the ball inward.

# 1 at The Creek is undeniably a Redan like green.
I'm not so sure that as strong an argument can be made for # 18 at the Knoll.

But, if some want to claim that # 1 emulates the Road Hole green at TOC I guess you could claim that # 18 green emulates its distant cousin at North Berwick.

[Jay Flemma]

Pat, if I have it correctly, the tee shot will play to the left directly over the soon-to-be-center-line bunker so that the angle will be correct.  I'll bow to George on this one, and agree with you the green does not run away form the player or very much left, but I see what george is saying.

Nevertheless, what a great course!  What a challenge...from 1-18 you have to really be focused because triples lurk everywhere if you get sloppy!

[Bill Brightly]

George!

Just looked at the old plans at Hackensack, especially the "third Nine" we never built   The Eden you are now restoring (with the short cross bunkers) is also on that nine

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Jay,

I've always been a big fan of The Knoll and give it higher marks than Matt Ward does.

If The Knoll had remained private, there's no doubt that it would have achieved lofty rankings long ago instead of remaining in the netherworld for so long.

Hopefully, George's efforts will result in a reawakening of its merits.

It's unfortunate that the added yardage, rather than the inherent value of the architecture, will be a focal point in appreciating its Phoenix like ascension.

As to # 7, years and years ago, it was never any wetter than the rest of the golf course.  In the intervening years something must have changed to make that area so saturated.

Perhaps nearby developments or deteriorating drainage systems, or both, are the culprit.

George Bahto,

When do you feel the golf course will be where you want it ?

[Dean Paolucci]

I agree with Pat, IMO had The Knoll remained private or equity owned you would see it in the loftiest of the rankings.  My father was in the group making a bid for the course and the heirs of Mr. Aiello refused to sell to the membership.  They felt some unfounded distain for the then current membership and opted to sell to Bloomfield College.  The College should have stuck to education because they ran it into the ground and ultimately the town of Parsippany stepped in with "Green Acres" money and purchased the club as open space.  Although they have operated the course in acceptable fashion for the last 30 or so years, clearly until George prevailed the course had been largely just sustained.

As for #18, I grew up at The Knoll and I do not remember the fairway being so dramatically left of the current cut.  I do remember a line of cypress and pine trees on the right side which intimidated the player into driving the ball more left which set up the more dramatic shot over the gaping bunker front left.  That being said if GB has visual proof my memory is fading faster than I think!

As a final thought, I could only hope that the township would restore The Knoll to its prior grandeur while operating it as an upscale daily fee.  Places like Ballyowen for example can command $125 fees and still have no starting times available.  Clearly the golfing public would step up and pay the higher rates for a golf course with classic excellence and heightened conditioning.

[George_Bahto]

Dan P: "As for #18, I grew up at The Knoll and I do not remember the fairway being so dramatically left of the current cut.

Dan, in the early days the width of 18-fairway stretched from the trees you mentioned on the right to that great bunker, now in the left rough - 250 yards off the tee. It has drifted to the right a lot - the left “fairway” bunker is now about 40 feet in the left rough.

Similarly, on the 4th hole the centerline of play was where the left rough line presently is - it has drifted nearly one half fairway width to the right. That Lion's Mouth bunker fronting the left side of 4-green should be just off the centerline and that ridge in the hog's-back running through the green should be a major problem on your approach, shunting balls left and right.

[George_Bahto]

P. Mucci: “It's unfortunate that the added yardage, rather than the inherent value of the architecture, will be a focal point in appreciating its Phoenix like ascension.”

The intention of my new back tees is not to add yardage but is to, as you mentioned, re-establish “the inherent value of the architecture.”  

Most of the fairway bunker strategy has been lost but the new tees on #4 - #5 - #14 - #16 will restore most of the tee shot strategy but this will better on holes #8, #11 and most dramatically on holes #15 and #18.

Fortunately, those holes are where we do have some room and the intended strategies for most players will be re-established.


Pat: Rather than list the rest of the boring details here, I sent the rest of the information to you in an E Mail.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Dean,

That's an excellent point about Ballyowen, which is far more distant from the populated areas than The Knoll.

Restored and run properly, The Knoll could easilly command those fees.

[Mike Mosely]

please don;t give them any ideas, Pat!  We need a great value in the NYC area!  Lord knows Ballyowen is barely worth half what it charges!

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Mike,

I've always marveled at Ballyowen and that entire complex.

It's distant, if not remote, accessable by two lane roads, yet, it seems to be thriving.

Given the choice to play The Knoll versus BO, it would be The Knoll by overwhelming numbers, but, perhaps golfers like the diversity provided by the BO complex of golf courses

[Dean Paolucci]

GB - If I read you correct then the fairway has not moved but shrunk and the left cut has receded or creped to its present point approximately 40 yards from its original position?  That makes sense to me and even stirs my recollection.

DEAN

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