[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

I think this needs to be a new thread.

Doesn't this now raise the question: what is restoration? I mean, we beat the crap out of architects who don't restore to the original style or a style of an era for which we approve. So, with that mindset, shouldn't Yale and all the others be restored to approach height, members be damned? Boys and girls, we can't have it both ways.

God forbid if Brian Silva (or Rees, of Fazio, or Ault, etc. etc. ) ever worked on a course and converted the front portion of a Biarritz to green  height. Michael Fay would call a special meeting of the Donald Ross Society just to lambaste Silva in public. Conversely, if Tom Doak (or Gil or any of the other architects with Favored Nation Status ) ever made a conversion of a Biarrtiz there would be hundreds of posts fawning all over the work calling it the greatest move since Old Tom extended the 18th at the Old Course.

My opinion is to return Yale to its original style. None of us, Favored Nation guys incuded, are smarter or more talented than C. B. Macdonald or Seth J. Raynor.

Fight amongst yourselves.

Anthony

[Lloyd_Cole]

Tony

Didn't Tom Doak have an idea that a certain number of courses by each architect (how many architects? who is important enough? who isn't?) should be 'protected' in their original glory?
Rather like what the National Trust does in the UK with listed properties.

I think that, overall this is a nice idea - but which courses? Who administers? If this could ever come to pass... Yale sounds like a nice place to start.

Until then, I still like the idea of the long putt.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Tony

You are a brilliant and insightful writer but I disagree with you on this one.

In the "good old days" it was most likely impractical to have the front as green due to both agronomical issues and perhaps more importantly the fact that drivers and brassie tee shots over the pond would not stop in the front anyway. That is a totally aerial hole with front pin locations.

Today, its easier to maintain greens AND even a short knocker like me can hit a 4, 5 or 6 iron (into the wind, no wind or a slight tail wind) to front pins and stop the ball before it goes into the swale.

Every time I play Yale I anticipate the pin location on 9 and I must say there is a disappointment whenever a front pin is used.  I'd say its there 80% of the time which I think is about 4 to 5 times more frequently then it should be used.  I'm sure pace of play issues account for this.  Front pins do have their merit as that is the only time the water comes into play at all.

If we can maintain the front section as green BUT firm as Scott would like it then I would keep it as green to increase the variety.  I would pin BACK locations at least 80% of the time.

[Phil Benedict]

Before I played Yale for the first time my only experience with Biarritz was the 8th at Whippoorwill, where the green started after the swale.  It's a good par 3 but nothing special.  The 9th at Yale is special.  Only on the few similarly maintained Biarritz greens do you get that putt from the valley, which is just a unique shot.  I wouldn't want to change that now.

Plus I laugh every time I see the hole.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Lloyd:

Brilliant.

Doak is so right... PRESERVE YALE!

As far as the long putt, it is a wonderful shot, but picture yourself with a wedge in your hand needing to feather one just over the trough. If that's not exciting enough, think about the next shot when you have to hit it out of the swale.

Dr. Childs:

I think you have underestimated the genius of Macdonald and Raynor. Yale was designed with three tees. Quoting the Hartford Courant, "The long course is 6,552, with a par of 71: for the regular course 6,107, par 69: and the short course 5,518, par also 69."

This is the important part, "... play will not necessarily be confined to one of the three courses. The players may choose his favorite tee on any hole by agrement with his group."

In other words, Dr. Childs, if Raynor wanted the front to be green, he would have made it that way since better players would have had the option to move tees and not be required to hit drivers or brassies. Shorter hitters (like yourself), who would be forced to use longer clubs, or less adept players, would most likely have ended up in the swale with a legitimate chance to make par or bogey. That sounds fair to me.

Your agronomic argument does not stand up. If greenkeepers of the day could maitain putting surfaces like those on 1 and 8, they would be able to maintain the 9th without a problem.

Anthony

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Phil:

Whipporwill has now converted the front of their Biarritz to green. A construction photo was discovered that appears to give proof that it was intended to be a two-tiered version. First, the soil in the front half of the green appears to match the back half, but not the surrounding soil. Second, their appear to be a series of small flags around the entire green complex demarcating the intended putting surface. The photo is hanging in the clubhouse bar.

Anthony

[Bill Brightly]

OK, let's agree that Raynor built it as an approach, but think how hard and fast the approach  was back then with NO irrigation system...

You want to put it back as nice, cushy fairway, water it, and then have the long hitters fly their ball to the back green, while the short hitters play it like a short par 4? You think that is an improvement?

What is more firm and fast than a putting green?

And Yale has PLENTY of scary wedge shots to greens, you don't need to change the 9th hole to add that feature to the course...

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Bill:

I was working under the assumption that the front portion would be kept firm so balls bounced to the back.

I have no problem with holes being difficult for certain groups of players. I'm a shortish hitter who fades the ball. I'm out of luck on supposedly reachable par-5s or on holes where a draw is called for (although I do have a world-class pull.) Besides, the front pin is a much more difficult shot for the short hitter. It really brings the water into play where the back pin does not.

Anthony

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

I just thought of something, seriously, shouldn't we get the opinion of Roger Rulewich on this since he has done such stellar (and expensive) restoration work up until this point? Dr. Childs, could you make contact with him, please.

Anthony

[Phil Benedict]

Anthony,

I heard that Whippoorwill had converted their Biarritz.  Not everyone was happy about the change.  People don't like change, do they?

Sometimes original intent turns out to be flawed.  For example, it was intended that the Eiffel Tower would be disassembled after the Paris Exposition, for which it was built, ended.

[Geoffrey Childs]

I just thought of something, seriously, shouldn't we get the opinion of Roger Rulewich on this since he has done such stellar (and expensive) restoration work up until this point? Dr. Childs, could you make contact with him, please.

Anthony

Tony - I'll leave a note for Roger with my annual Christmas Card that we normally exchange.  

One of my favorite experiences at Yale was during the Women's Club Championship and watching our better women players on #9.  They played the forward/lower tees Mr Pioppi and with mostly Drivers hit shots that landed in the front, disappeared into the swale and reappeared on the back level. It was fun to watch.  I think their current play and even from the forward tees best mirrors what it was like to play the hole back in the days of Macdonald. Keep that front section FIRM but as green.

[TEPaul]

Members be damned??

That's a pretty interesting take on things and another good way for restoration, certainly really purist restoration, to make itself unpopular.

If Yale's Biarritz has been front green space for many decades I really don't see the point of returning it to fairway space just because some now question about what Raynor might've originally done there has been raised.

Furthermore, this kind of thing seems to be as much maintenance and agronomics as architectural.

But if front green space seems to make those holes play more interesting and more enjoyable for a membership that should take priority, in my book.

Should we recommend that all those classic courses be shortened to what they once were too?  

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Tom:

You can still play Yale, and many others, from the original yardages if you so choose.

So are you saying members opinions in restoration matters? So if the Merion members are happy with the work does that make it acceptable?

Anthony

[TEPaul]

"So are you saying members opinions in restoration matters? So if the Merion members are happy with the work does that make it acceptable?"

Anthony:

Of course it does. It makes it acceptable to those who matter most at any golf course--eg the club's members. To me that is sort of "Common Sense 101".  

Is there really anyone on this website who is not a member of Merion who is deluded enough to think his opinion about Merion is more important than the opinion of someone who belongs to the club?

[Noel Freeman]

Bill:

I was working under the assumption that the front portion would be kept firm so balls bounced to the back.

I have no problem with holes being difficult for certain groups of players. I'm a shortish hitter who fades the ball. I'm out of luck on supposedly reachable par-5s or on holes where a draw is called for (although I do have a world-class pull.) Besides, the front pin is a much more difficult shot for the short hitter. It really brings the water into play where the back pin does not.

Anthony

Front pin positions are much harder on the Biarritz than the back.. In fact when I get on the tee and see the pin back it takes the water out of play for me and I grab a hybrid or 5-wood.. I'm actually relieved.  The pins in the front bring into play a lot. There is obviously the water and the wind is very difficult to read over Greist Pond.. When the pins are in front, the effective green you are working with is very WIDE from a width perspective and very narrow from length. You often end up in the swale which then has a vicious right to left swing coming out of it and three putts are common.

I hope the hole continues as fairway because I think the front has enormous interest as a pinable location.  Downwind this year, front pins were near impossible to get close to.

But I did see two people this year play the Biarritz the way it was intended.  Mike Policano hit a lefty cut that landed full of chase in the front and went all the way back to 4 feet.  Dr. Childs did the same with a 5-wood into the wind that he hit thin and just made the green and then to 10 feet. Watching the ball come thru the swale the way it was intended was delicious.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

There is a Yale Biarrtiz urban legend that has Connecticut-based pro Tommy Armour landing his tee ball on the front portion while the pin was on the back. The story goes that he took out wedge, pitched his shot close, tapped in for par and was immediately escorted off the course by the head greenkeeper. That tae could only make sense if the front was green.

The moral of the story is that if the front had been maintained as approach height Armour would have finished his round and the greenkeeper would not have been made angry and they all would have lived happily ever after. The end.

Anthony

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Yes, absolutely. I think they should restore the 17th green to it's Biarritz form......

[Noel Freeman]

Yes, absolutely. I think they should restore the 17th green to it's Biarritz form......

Tommy, my GCA colleague, I think according to the Banks and Bahto book it is actually a double plateau.  

[Phil Benedict]

Tommy Armour was a notorious hustler who was banned from many clubs in Westchester County.  He probably got kicked off Yale for hustling some wealthy alum.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Yes, absolutely. I think they should restore the 17th green to it's Biarritz form......

Tommy, my GCA colleague, I think according to the Banks and Bahto book it is actually a double plateau.  

I've always wondered how George got Charles Banks to collaborate with him. He (Banks) still must be very open to interviews in stuff.

[Mike Mosely]

Yes, absolutely. I think they should restore the 17th green to it's Biarritz form......

Tommy, my GCA colleague, I think according to the Banks and Bahto book it is actually a double plateau.  

Wait a minute, I'm confused...the 17th? The banks and bahto book?  Huh?

I like the Biarritz at 9 at Yale the way it is.  Its cool to putt down and up thew swale and its quite an ingenious way of defending par...couldn't you build a biarritz green (with an internal swale) and make the green surrounds bunkerless?  That way the swale would defend par admirably and yet the hole would reward the player who sticks his approach in the correct sector.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Mike:

You'll have to forgive the ramblings of our good friends Noel and Tommy. No matter how many times we warn them they insist on drinking the entire bottle of cough medicine before posting.

Bunkerless Biarritz? Bite your tongue - or typing fingers!

Anthony

[Geoffrey Childs]

Tony

From Scott Ramsay -

There is a video of the 1934 Connecticut Open at Yale in which the films of #9 clearly show the green both front and rear of the swale.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Childs:

That's eight years after the course opened. What's your point?

Yeah, and I keep hearing about this video. The one I received doesn't even play.

Anthony

[Geoffrey Childs]

Childs:

That's eight years after the course opened. What's your point?

Yeah, and I keep hearing about this video. The one I received doesn't even play.

Anthony

Tony

Pay the electric bill and the video will play.  You sure do have a long lasting battery on that computer of yours.

The point is I imagine that for at least 73 years the 9th has been maintained as green for the entire 63 yards front to back.

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